Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #401 Posted March 4, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Where did I say that my experience matches "most people?" In fact I have been careful not to make such silly assumptions. This is the second time you attack me for viewpoints that are not mine.I think we are having a miscommunication. My comment referred to "most people". You said it was irrational, and then gave your personal experience in apparent justification of your conclusion that my comment (referring to most people) was irrational. I'm not sure how else to interpret your comment. Also, Jaapv, please understand this: I am not intending to attack you or anyone else on this forum. My intention is only to discuss and debate the issues raised. Just because I comment on or criticize a comment you make, please don't take it as an attack, but rather a vigorous debate. I respect your and others' opinions, even if they do not align with my own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 Hi Dirk Mandeville, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no! . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #402 Posted March 4, 2017 Oh, I see. YOU said that...well, I leave the sweeping generalisations to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 4, 2017 Share #403 Posted March 4, 2017 Jaap's rationale for moving on not only doesn't seem representative of others; it seems surprising even for him, particularly with his praise of the M240. But that's the beauty of choices and individual preferences. To each his/her own. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #404 Posted March 4, 2017 Oh, I see. YOU said that...well, I leave the sweeping generalisations to you. To be clear, yes I said that. And then you quoted it, called it irrational, and gave your personal experience as justification for calling it irrational. Hence my comment questioning whether you considered your experience representative of "most people." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #405 Posted March 4, 2017 I'm certainly not representative , Jeff, any more than any of us is. I am moving on for the travel and wildlife part of my photography. Not getting out of Leica entirely. The 240 to me is the best M ever, sadly overtaken for part of my use. Funny thing, I am being more traditionalist than any purist M10 buyer here. Everything Barnack intended is now represented by the MTF format and all arguments aimed at 135 film by large format photographers a hundred years ago are now aimed at Olympus and Panasonic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted March 4, 2017 Share #406 Posted March 4, 2017 I'm certainly not representative , Jeff, any more than any of us is. I am moving on for the travel and wildlife part of my photography. Not getting out of Leica entirely. The 240 to me is the best M ever, sadly overtaken for part of my use.Jaap, M line would have never supported 200-800 range auto focus zoom lens (as in your alternate two camera setup). Video or no video, you would have to take two cameras anyway for wildlife. I am trying to understand your usecase. Update: ok, I see your last sentence. I understand that your argument for video is not coming from your own wildlife usage. Never mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted March 4, 2017 Share #407 Posted March 4, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) For the folks who ask "how many people used M240 video", I would like to ask how many M10 users use interval timer. (As for me, I think it is very useful addition). I am making a point that adding and removing a feature is not necessarily a numerical game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #408 Posted March 4, 2017 Jaap, M line would have never supported 200-800 range auto focus zoom lens (as in your alternate two camera setup). Video or no video, you would have to take two cameras anyway for wildlife. I am trying to understand your usecase. Update: ok, I see your last sentence. I understand that your argument for video is not coming from your own wildlife usage. Never mind. Exactly; and Leica has rubbed my nose into it. It is an exciting new journey. However, I was doing quite nicely with R lenses on the M 240, and if the direction hadn't changed I would have continued. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 4, 2017 Share #409 Posted March 4, 2017 [...] You want a modern rangefinder? I don't see the problem then. The M10 is the most modern rangefinder ever produced, and an excellent tool for photography. I think what you want is a Sony rangefinder. Seriously, though. I don't see why the people complaining about video don't just buy a Sony RX1ii and adapt their M lenses to that. Problem solved. Or, you could buy an M240 now, which should be good for at least a decade. Or, you could wait and see what Leica has in store for the next few years. Lots of options. I have an M240 already. Great optical RF with an EVF from Jurassic Park. So i have to bring a second body for outings and travels. Painful to say the least. Now the M10 has another great optical RF with another EVF from Jurassic Park. Well to be kind for Leica... from the beginning of digital photography. One second blackout time... Incredible at that price point or even for mere $1k cameras. Now if i need to do a bit of video, how am i supposed to use my Leica lenses? Should i buy a Godzilla SL for that? As a result of that "purity" i let the M240 at home and i end up bringing a Sony camera with me when i travel. Thank you Das Wesentliche. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #410 Posted March 4, 2017 Jaap, M line would have never supported 200-800 range auto focus zoom lens (as in your alternate two camera setup). Video or no video, you would have to take two cameras anyway for wildlife. I am trying to understand your usecase. Update: ok, I see your last sentence. I understand that your argument for video is not coming from your own wildlife usage. Never mind. well, the video argument certainly applies to wildlife. One of my main uses was supplementing the footage taken by my wife with her dedicated video camera with long-lens clips taken with the Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #411 Posted March 4, 2017 For the folks who ask "how many people used M240 video", I would like to ask how many M10 users use interval timer. (As for me, I think it is very useful addition). I am making a point that adding and removing a feature is not necessarily a numerical game. How many interval timer users ask for extra ports, thicker bodies, and resource-intensive firmware updates for new features? I am making the point that the two features are in no way comparable. The interval timer furthers the goal of ease of use for still photography and doesn't otherwise affect the camera. Video doesn't further that goal and does impact the camera in numerous ways. You are right that it is not just a numerical game. Lots of factors play into a decision like this. But the numbers of users who care (or don't) about the feature is certainly going to be an important consideration for Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #412 Posted March 4, 2017 In the end, it comes down to Leica defining their target customer base. It is perfectly legitimate to question that decision, as it is legitimate to welcome it. However, for some longtime M users it does come with feelings of regret. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 4, 2017 Share #413 Posted March 4, 2017 Oi! We get it! I agree with Jaap and Paul J - I don't think video or tethering is coming back to the M cameras. The M10 shows a clear direction, and the camera is, conceptually, better for it. Not surprisingly, it seems to be a good decision. Sure, others disagree and some are disappointed, but Andy is right. Look at the numbers of posters - a small but noisy group. Convincing other forum users of your outrage won't change a thing, other than to wish you well, and speed your transition to another system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 4, 2017 Share #414 Posted March 4, 2017 Oi! We get it! I agree with Jaap and Paul J - I don't think video or tethering is coming back to the M cameras. The M10 shows a clear direction, and the camera is, conceptually, better for it. Not surprisingly, it seems to be a good decision. Sure, others disagree and some are disappointed, but Andy is right. Look at the numbers of posters - a small but noisy group. Convincing other forum users of your outrage won't change a thing, other than to wish you well, and speed your transition to another system. John, I agree that the M10 shows a direction that Leica is going for the base model and defining that base model in that way makes a lot of sense to me. At the same time, Leica has shown that although they go in a certain direction with the base model they are willing to produce variants for some fairly small groups of customers. Making a variant to just shoot black and white for example, shows that making a variant need not affect the direction they are going and that they are willing with their variants to cater to a pretty small group. Will one of their variants shoot video? I don't see how any of us can know. Producing such a variant isn't about the direction the camera is going. It is about catering to a certain set of customers who want it. Until we know whether Leica will produce such a camera, however, I think it is premature to argue that they have abandoned video. For the record, I am very happy with the M10 and I would not be in the market for an M10 variant for video, but that doesn't mean I don't think they will make one. My guess is that the probably won't make one, and that would suit me just fine. What I won't do is take my guesses about what Leica is going to do and claim they are crystal clear certainties and make definitive claims about what Leica has done to its customers based on my guesses. All those arguments are premature and excessive hand wringing in my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #415 Posted March 4, 2017 Oi! We get it! I agree with Jaap and Paul J - I don't think video or tethering is coming back to the M cameras. The M10 shows a clear direction, and the camera is, conceptually, better for it. Not surprisingly, it seems to be a good decision. Sure, others disagree and some are disappointed, but Andy is right. Look at the numbers of posters - a small but noisy group. Convincing other forum users of your outrage won't change a thing, other than to wish you well, and speed your transition to another system. the word outrage proves you don't get it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesurf Posted March 4, 2017 Share #416 Posted March 4, 2017 JMHO but video has no place on a digital Leica M. People who want a do it all camera are hobbyists and will not cough up $6600 USD for a camera to begin with. I believe it is quite the opposite. Many PJs are required to not only photograph still images of the news events they’re covering but also to shoot video, provide alternate forms of media just to keep their job. Take for example Super Bowl LIVE, a multi day event leading up to the Super Bowl, but happening in downtown Houston. I needed to record some video clips for company media and presentations, but I also had to take high quality stills to capture a wide range of entertainment opportunities. For that event, I used M9 with Tri-Elmar for wide stills and Fuji X-Pro 2 with a 28 Summicron for both stills and video clips. Both did the job nicely and I got both types of media, some stills went to online pubs and media helped relay the message for the writers. As stated in one Nikon article, "even sports photographers who are shooting video might want a “photo finish” still image to enhance their coverage." That article was not aimed at the "hobbyist" as a primary audience Using high quality optics plus video capability, might just get you more work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 4, 2017 Share #417 Posted March 4, 2017 John, I agree that the M10 shows a direction that Leica is going for the base model and defining that base model in that way makes a lot of sense to me. At the same time, Leica has shown that although they go in a certain direction with the base model they are willing to produce variants for some fairly small groups of customers. Making a variant to just shoot black and white for example, shows that making a variant need not affect the direction they are going and that they are willing with their variants to cater to a pretty small group. Will one of their variants shoot video? I don't see how any of us can know. Producing such a variant isn't about the direction the camera is going. It is about catering to a certain set of customers who want it. Until we know whether Leica will produce such a camera, however, I think it is premature to argue that they have abandoned video. For the record, I am very happy with the M10 and I would not be in the market for an M10 variant for video, but that doesn't mean I don't think they will make one. My guess is that the probably won't make one, and that would suit me just fine. What I won't do is take my guesses about what Leica is going to do and claim they are crystal clear certainties and make definitive claims about what Leica has done to its customers based on my guesses. All those arguments are premature and excessive hand wringing in my view. Hang on, let me get this right - You don't think it will happen and yet you come here to argue with other people that don't think it will happen that it might happen? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 4, 2017 Share #418 Posted March 4, 2017 Hang on, let me get this right - You don't think it will happen and yet you come here to argue with other people that don't think it will happen that it might happen? Yup, the problem I have with your argument is that it is premature. Your arguments only make sense if you know what Leica is going to do and they don't make sense if you are just making a guess about what they are going to do. The logic of your argument requires certainty when there is clearly uncertainty. You and I may make the same guess, but if you act as if your guess is a certainty, but I realize my guess may well be wrong, then, yes, we will come to very different conclusions. I don't have a problem at all with the guess that you make. What I have trouble with is that you reason from your guess as if it has already occurred when in fact it very well may not. Specifically in this case you make a guess that Leica will not offer USB tethering in the M10 generation of camera, and then you reason from the guess as if it is a fait accompli and you suggest that Leica has abandoned people who want tethering. In doing so you fail to realize that your guess may be wrong and your reasoning is therefore over wrought and illogical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #419 Posted March 4, 2017 We may speculate what may or may not happen, but reality demands that we will have to make a decision based on the facts known at a point of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 4, 2017 Share #420 Posted March 4, 2017 We may speculate what may or may not happen, but reality demands that we will have to make a decision based on the facts known at a point of time. Totally agree and right now we know that we can get a Leica M with video and USB (the M240), so we shouldn't conclude that Leica won't offer those functionalities in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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