M10? - Sorry, no!

[jaapv]

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Fair point. But as i said before, they don't have to work this out themselves; they can use Panasonic technology.

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[Dirk Mandeville]

Fair point. But as i said before, they don't have to work this out themselves; they can use Panasonic technology.

Perhaps, but then the camera morphs into something Leica never intended and, I expect, the majority of their customers never wanted. And the ability to make the ultimate photographer's tool (in terms of simplicity, size, and function) is inevitably hampered. I think this is the crux of the matter and the reason Leica omitted video. They have a clear vision of the direction they want to take the camera and video, in any form, impedes realization of that vision moving forward.

[jaapv]

Perhaps, but then the camera morphs into something Leica never intended and, I expect, the majority of their customers never wanted. And the ability to make the ultimate photographer's tool (in terms of simplicity, size, and function) is inevitably hampered. I think this is the crux of the matter and the reason Leica omitted video. They have a clear vision of the direction they want to take the camera and video, in any form, impedes realization of that vision moving forward.

That is something that I seriously doubt. The 240 proved that video can be implemented without impacting the character of the camera (except in the mind of some users, admitted) and I do not see why that trend cannot be continued, if neccessary in a separate model, 240 size if needed. It only needs to be improved.

If the vision of Leica were to keep as close as possible to the limitations of a 1954 design, they would meet the same fate as the Dinosaurs.

The way forward is to implement  the present day technology in the M system, improving usability, keeping all that defines the camera at the same time. Not an easy task, I grant you.

[Steve Spencer]

That is something I seriously doubt. The 240 proved that video can be implemented without impacting the character of the camera (except in the mind of some users, admitted) and I do not see why that trend cannot be continued, if neccessary in a separate model. It only needs to be improved.

If the vision of Leica were to keep as close as possible to the limitations of a 1954 design, they would meet the same fate as the Dinosaurs.

The way forward is to implement  the present day technology in the M system, improving usability, keeping all that defines the camera at the same time. Not an easy task, I grant you.

 

My view is that at this point it seems clear that Leica's strategy of have a model aimed squarely at its base of users and what the majority want together with alternative models that cater to a smaller subset of users is a smart strategy. With than in mind the M10 seems to be a great base model for that strategy. Keep in mind Leica had a camera with video (the M240) and without video (M262) in the last generation. I think they were smart in realizing, however, that it is better to have the base model be without video. From that base model I think we all expect a monochrome model, and a P model. I would also be surprised if we did not see a D model without an LCD, and I think we will see a model with video. The video model may have to be a slightly thicker body and I hope they add ports to make video really credible. I think the only thing holding back the introduction of this model is whether they think sales will be high enough to justify it. I hope for the people who want video that the sales are there and they will make it. My best guess is the sales are there and they will make it in about 2 years. But I find it hard to argue with Leica's direction of making the base M10 model as one without video. That is the camera that seems the central tendency of what users want and allows them to make a variety of alternative models that cater to the special wishes of the smaller subsets of the market.

[Dirk Mandeville]

If the vision of Leica were to keep as close as possible to the limitations of a 1954 design, they would meet the same fate as the Dinosaurs.

The way forward is to implement  the present day technology in the M system, improving usability, keeping all that defines the camera at the same time. Not an easy task, I grant you.

This overstates the issue. The idea is to stay true to the design principle of a simple, compact, ergonomic tool designed specifically for still photography. Staying true to their roots. That doesn't mean ignoring technological advances, so long as that technology furthers the goal. I disagree with you on the notion that video doesn't impact the character of the camera, and the number of Leica users asking for it to be removed is evidence of that.

 

I don't disagree, however, that Leica could continue to evolve the M240 as a separate line. However, I will be surprised if sales would be enough to justify that continued development. Which kind of brings us back around to their reason for omitting video on the M10 in the first place. Most of their users don't need or want it.

[IkarusJohn]

Perhaps, but then the camera morphs into something Leica never intended and, I expect, the majority of their customers never wanted. And the ability to make the ultimate photographer's tool (in terms of simplicity, size, and function) is inevitably hampered. I think this is the crux of the matter and the reason Leica omitted video. They have a clear vision of the direction they want to take the camera and video, in any form, impedes realization of that vision moving forward.

I think that's on the money. There's no point trying to turn the camera into something it isn't, and I also see no point turning the M into a mini SL.

[Paul J]

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It's not like people are trying to turn it into a mini SL. it was the M with ease features before the SL even existed and things like USB existed on additional grip without people even needing to know it was there. The connectors are there so just make a USB grip with a movie button on it too.

 

The people that this is a problem for aren't interested in the SL. So do you turn them away from the SL and the M as well? That is both sad and pointless to me.

[lct]

[...] The people that this is a problem for aren't interested in the SL. So do you turn them away from the SL and the M as well? That is both sad and pointless to me.

 

Indeed, unless Leica has a joint venture with Sony . A bulky body like the SL601 would be interesting in medium format but in 24x36 it is definitely too big for me. Matter of tastes of course but this camera or a little sister of it has nothing to do with rangefinders. The M10 gives me the feeling that the rangefinder is a sort of dead end for Leica now. YMMV.

[Dirk Mandeville]

The people that this is a problem for aren't interested in the SL. So do you turn them away from the SL and the M as well? That is both sad and pointless to me.

I have a feeling that this is exactly their plan. In interviews, they have stated that this is the direction they wanted to take the M platform, and for those who want video, there is the SL. They make the point that the SL is a much better platform from which to develop video. I can't disagree with them there. I have a feeling that the number of people who must have video but won't buy the SL is not a high enough number to dissuade them. Time will tell if that holds true. The SL could flop and make them reconsider. It is always possible they will put out an updated M240 to appeal to these users, but again I'm just not sure the potential sales of such a model is enough to entice them to do so.

[jaapv]

An updated M 240 wouldprobably be too little too late. The customers in question will have moved to other options.

[Steve Spencer]

An updated M 240 wouldprobably be too little too late. The customers in question will have moved to other options.

 

If that is the case, then I doubt an M10 with video would have kept many of them anyway. There is still an M240 available and if they are going to update a variant of the M10 with video (perhaps with the M240 body if it is needed), then I don't think Leica will remove the M240 from production until that new camera is available. So, Leica will have had an M camera with video available the whole time. If taking a bit more time for the upgrade caused them to switch, then I suspect they would have switched anyway.  I think one thing that is pretty clear is that Leica's upgrade cycle is going to be longer than most of the cameras that the M would compete with for video, so if a long upgrade cycle causes you to switch, then you probably wouldn't stay with Leica anyway.

[Lord Lucan]

Are we steering our video boat from THIS destination

to nowhere?

[Paul J]

If that is the case, then I doubt an M10 with video would have kept many of them anyway. There is still an M240 available and if they are going to update a variant of the M10 with video (perhaps with the M240 body if it is needed), then I don't think Leica will remove the M240 from production until that new camera is available. So, Leica will have had an M camera with video available the whole time. If taking a bit more time for the upgrade caused them to switch, then I suspect they would have switched anyway.  I think one thing that is pretty clear is that Leica's upgrade cycle is going to be longer than most of the cameras that the M would compete with for video, so if a long upgrade cycle causes you to switch, then you probably wouldn't stay with Leica anyway.

No, I'm actually quite shocked of the removal of two things, USB, and Video. USB is such a basic requirement for me that I take it for granted. I just expect it's there like on every other camera. I want video too, because that is what is relevant in this day and age. I don't need Hollywood quality, I don't need outputs or any more inputs than what the M240 Had. HDMI would be nice if it fit in an optional grip but I don't consider it necessary, maybe that is just me.

 

So, with regards to your comment that these people would have left anyway, that's not true. I was expecting I would be shooting the M forever in the way I need. That is now not the case and I have to move on. Leica wants to direct sales to the SL, that is all, but instead they send customers away. To me that is absolutely crazy when they could just have an option grip with USB, a Movie button and maybe HDMI or a headphone jack and those that do't want it don't have to even know it's there.

[Lord Lucan]

Paul, you are a good man.

[jmahto]

If M is to be kept traditional then why add interval timer, remote app etc. etc.

[Dirk Mandeville]

If M is to be kept traditional then why add interval timer, remote app etc. etc.

Depends on your definition of "traditional." Some people hear that word and try to take it the extreme to point out some nonexistent hypocrisy in Leica's design choices. Leica's idea was to create a compact, simple-to-operate rangefinder camera dedicated to and optimized for still photography (that's what is meant by traditional, as that has always been the traditional niche of the M system). Anything that hampered that vision was removed. By most accounts, they succeeded spectacularly in that goal. There are multiple Leica Facebook groups filled with users that are absolutely thrilled with their M10's, and multiple positive reviews as well.

 

The interval timer and remote app further the utility of the camera for photography, while adding little to nothing in size or complexity. Likewise, wifi was added and USB removed. I expect the wifi connectivity will be improved over time to the point that no functionality is lost by dropping USB. The point being that these things further the goals of stills photography, and do not hamper them in any way. Trying to create a "traditional" camera does not mean eschewing all technological advances for the sake of purity. They still offer film cameras for those true purists. But I think omitting video and even USB fits nicely with Leica's vision for the camera and results in an excellent product for those whose sole desire is to shoot photography with a digital rangefinder camera. Of course, there will always be those who lament losing a particular feature, even if it only briefly appeared in one model. Losing a feature you enjoyed and thought would be further developed is never an easy pill to swallow.

[Steve Spencer]

No, I'm actually quite shocked of the removal of two things, USB, and Video. USB is such a basic requirement for me that I take it for granted. I just expect it's there like on every other camera. I want video too, because that is what is relevant in this day and age. I don't need Hollywood quality, I don't need outputs or any more inputs than what the M240 Had. HDMI would be nice if it fit in an optional grip but I don't consider it necessary, maybe that is just me.

 

So, with regards to your comment that these people would have left anyway, that's not true. I was expecting I would be shooting the M forever in the way I need. That is now not the case and I have to move on. Leica wants to direct sales to the SL, that is all, but instead they send customers away. To me that is absolutely crazy when they could just have an option grip with USB, a Movie button and maybe HDMI or a headphone jack and those that do't want it don't have to even know it's there.

 

The trouble I have with your argument Paul, is that you don't know that Leica won't introduce those things for the M10. You seem to not only expect Leica to introduce them, but also to introduce them immediately at the release. If not introducing them immediately at the release is enough to cause you to switch cameras, then I think that begs the question of how fast do the upgrades have to be before you would switch anyway and I don't think Leica is every going to have as fast of upgrades as other companies--they are just too small. In the meantime, if you want a camera with video and USB, Leica still offers one, it may not be up to date, but it is still there. If you don't want it because it is not up to date, then again I think you are going to be frustrated with Leica's relatively slow update cycle. It is fine of course to want a faster update cycle and that can be a very reasonable reason to change cameras, but I don't think it makes sense to say that you are switching because Leica doesn't offer an M with USB and video (which they still do) or even to say because Leica doesn't offer them in the M10--they very well might in the future and may very well keep the M240 around until they do. You could say you are switching because you are unhappy waiting so long for an upgrade that is totally understandable, but saying you are switching because it isn't offer doesn't make sense to me when it still is being offered and might well be offered in this brand new generation of cameras in the future.

[jmahto]

Depends on your definition of "traditional." Some people hear that word and try to take it the extreme to point out some nonexistent hypocrisy in Leica's design choices. Leica's idea was to create a compact, simple-to-operate rangefinder camera dedicated to and optimized for still photography (that's what is meant by traditional, as that has always been the traditional niche of the M system). Anything that hampered that vision was removed. By most accounts, they succeeded spectacularly in that goal. There are multiple Leica Facebook groups filled with users that are absolutely thrilled with their M10's, and multiple positive reviews as well.

 

The interval timer and remote app further the utility of the camera for photography, while adding little to nothing in size or complexity. Likewise, wifi was added and USB removed. I expect the wifi connectivity will be improved over time to the point that no functionality is lost by dropping USB. The point being that these things further the goals of stills photography, and do not hamper them in any way. Trying to create a "traditional" camera does not mean eschewing all technological advances for the sake of purity. They still offer film cameras for those true purists. But I think omitting video and even USB fits nicely with Leica's vision for the camera and results in an excellent product for those whose sole desire is to shoot photography with a digital rangefinder camera. Of course, there will always be those who lament losing a particular feature, even if it only briefly appeared in one model. Losing a feature you enjoyed and thought would be further developed is never an easy pill to swallow.

Yes, I agree with your beginning sentence that definition of what is "traditional", is not fixed and I don't see much gain in arguing about what it should be. I also don't see any Leica literature that makes a point of "still" photography focus for M (let me know if you have seen such a statement). To me it still looks like a decision not driven by philosophy but driven by technology constraints (heat issues, 4K support needing processing power etc.). This is why I am still hopeful that we will see a M-V (Video) version sometimes down the line as one of many variants.

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[Dirk Mandeville]

I also don't see any Leica literature that makes a point of "still" photography focus for M (let me know if you have seen such a statement). To me it still looks like a decision not driven by philosophy but driven by technology constraints (heat issues, 4K support needing processing power etc.). .

A recent David Farkas interview with Stefan Daniel and Jesko Von Oeynhausen provides some insight. They state pretty clearly they wanted to streamline the design to make a "pure M". For sixty years, the M camera has been about still photography. Here are a few pertinent excerpts from the interview:

 

 

Farkas: It seems you really stuck to your design goal which is to make the most analog-feeling digital M, the purest digital M, and I think this is what M users have asked for a long time.

 

Stefan: For a decade, yeah.

 

...

 

Farkas: Even before the M10 came out, first with the M262 and then even more so with the M-D262, it seemed like users were asking for less and less features and more and more of that pure M experience – and Leica has been listening.

 

Jesko: Absolutely right.

 

...

 

Farkas: And the decision to eliminate video? What was the thinking here?

 

Jesko: We talked a lot to our customers to find out what the essential requirements for the new generation were. And when we talked about video we found out that most of the customers said, “I don’t care.” Many costumers said “I do care, but I don’t want it.” And of course, there’s a certain group of costumers that really appreciate video and would miss it, but these are customers that would really want it working perfectly, with HDMI and more advanced features.

 

So therefore, we have the SL as an option for them. When we developed the M (Typ 240) we didn’t have an SL so we tried to reach a broad customer group, which we still can reach now. But with two different products, which makes sense from a product development standpoint.

 

...

 

Farkas: Tell me a little bit about the more simplified button interface on the back of the camera.

 

Jesko: Our target was to simplify the camera as much as possible in order to make a pure M. So, we also looked at the digital side of the camera to see how we could streamline it. Reducing the number of buttons makes the operation easier to understand. You don’t have to read each button label since there are only three, and ultimately, you’re faster at accessing all the options available.

 

But we didn’t want to create more work for the photographer, so everything that was there with the six buttons can still be reached with the same number of clicks with this concept. We’ve found it’s very easy to learn the new concept.

[jmahto]

I had read that before. To me "pure" experience doesn't go with remote app, Wifi and GPS. This is why I call that BS and guess that the real reason is that they could not implement video (see comment above on "...working properly, with HDMI...."). When a company can't do something (also time to market) then invent all sorts of reasons to explain that.

 

I am not privy to their sales figures but I suspect that SL will not outright win against other FF/medium format mirrorless and DSLRs. If they have indeed taken a decision to "never" have video on M then they are leaving money on the table. Only Leica knows.