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M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

Paulus

By Paulus
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pgk

pgk

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On 2/10/2020 at 9:41 AM, jaapv said:

The definition of full frame is that the print size is the same as the negative (sensor) size. So everybody using a 24x36 camera is supposed to print passport portrait  size if he wishes to claim full-frame.  The only Leica full-frame camera is the Sofort.

Take a look at Leica's definition: https://www.leitz-cine.com/m-08-cine-lenses/#learn-more-anchor

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jmahto
jmahto

+1   Leica should have a secret video feature (better than discrete). These all can be undocumented and passed on verbally in secret and sound proof meeting rooms. No one else will know. Couple of i

duoenboge
duoenboge

Yes of course there are wishes. I would like to get the digital spirit level back. To remove it is in my opinion really ridiculous. I hope they can realize it in the M10-P.

jaapv
jaapv

Oh, I do have a wish: bring video back, if possible in such a discrete manner as not to upset the more traditional users. Consider the tradition of the Leica Travel Camera as promoted by Dr.Paul Wolff

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Alberti

Alberti

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Please no video, but that does not imply 'no EVF capability ...

The M240 I have has its quirks, and while the M10 is a  step towards in providing a product with the quality of the M8 and M9 (saturation, colour depth) the total feel of the image can still be improved upon, to get that KODAK look that the first generations were famous for (what keeps Leica to collaborate with the ex-Kodak experts that have modernized CCD sensors in their portfolio ?) Anyway, it's not pixel count (less is more) but the capability to structure the picture and give some kind of liquidity to the image and provide some inherent idea of depth, a 3D effect the older generation had, like perfect slide film. 

A frameline that is projected electronically (from the 6 bit code or from the lens selection list; then add the 40mm Summilux-C to that list), while it will never bee as nice a viewfinder as an M2 and M8 I'm afraid in handling, it can be handsome.

Well a zooming viewfinder that merges with the OVF would be a real innovation, the zoom range does not have to be great, but some help would be great. But: it implies the patch changes in size too, which would not be great ..

Impoved colour support: LED sources with very bad RGB coverage abound that are still reading a color temp of e.g. 2700K are now common, throwing the pictures into disarray.

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jankap

jankap

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Leica seems to do not like to implement an adjustable LCD screen for waist level taking. A built in EVF is not so very comfortable in comparison with Visoflex-EVF then.

Both have over an OVF the advantage, that they give a two dimensional view,  just as the result gets. No parallax, zoomed according the focal length, no 70cm distance setting border, etc.

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Stripey Badger

Stripey Badger

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In August 2014 the M240 appeared and the M10 debuted in January 2017. That’s two and a half years give a month or so. Now they are talking about 'less than' four years from now for the M11, so let’s say 2023 to be optimistic. And they haven’t even written the spec yet. Seven years? Come ON!!

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adan

adan

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4 minutes ago, Stripey Badger said:

In August 2014 the M240 appeared...

Where do you get that? The M240 was announced at photokina (Sept) 2012. First report of a forum member receiving their M240 is March 2, 2013.

 

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IkarusJohn

IkarusJohn

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2 hours ago, Stripey Badger said:

In August 2014 the M240 appeared and the M10 debuted in January 2017. That’s two and a half years give a month or so. Now they are talking about 'less than' four years from now for the M11, so let’s say 2023 to be optimistic. And they haven’t even written the spec yet. Seven years? Come ON!!

You have a problem with your M10, or is newer always better ...

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Tailwagger

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We're seeing a new M10 in the form of the new monochrom with presumably an M10R to shortly follow, so again, three to four years for some form of generational shift.  The digital age may have obscured the notion, but AFAICT a bump to the numeric designation occurs when there is a significant change to the physical packaging, not the guts.  We might not see an M11 for decades, if the current body can accommodate whatever they have in store for us.

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jankap

jankap

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vor 7 Stunden schrieb Alberti:

The M240 I have has its quirks, and while the M10 is a  step towards in providing a product with the quality of the M8 and M9 (saturation, colour depth) the total feel of the image can still be improved upon, to get that KODAK look that the first generations were famous for (what keeps Leica to collaborate with the ex-Kodak experts that have modernized CCD sensors in their portfolio ?) Anyway, it's not pixel count (less is more) but the capability to structure the picture and give some kind of liquidity to the image and provide some inherent idea of depth, a 3D effect the older generation had, like perfect slide film. 

Newer is not better, the 2-digit M has a long way to go still.:P

Another point is the building of color. The Foveon sensor creates - most of the time - decent colors, despite its different concept. So in the M line it should be possible to create for the M10 the same colors as in the M9. Is not that a task for the developers of the Color Lookup Table? I cannot believe, that the transport of the electric charge can  influence this (CCD vs CMOS). 

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Stripey Badger

Stripey Badger

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19 hours ago, adan said:

Where do you get that? The M240 was announced at photokina (Sept) 2012. First report of a forum member receiving their M240 is March 2, 2013.

Just shows you can’t trust Wiki. It’s still a long time for a new model. I’ll buy a new mark when they add IBIS. My eyesight is not what it was sixty years ago. I read people saying how wonderful rangefinder is. Maybe it was back in the thirties but it’s been obsolete since autofocus arrived. Some say it forces one to give more attention to composition. That sounds pretty weak to me. Why not just take more time anyway? Leica patented some autofocus technology between 1960 and ’73 (beware! Wiki) so why not the M? 
It reminds me of those who argue revolvers are better than semis because they are more reliable. That’s just not true any more. Rangefinders slow you down.

 

 

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Mr.Prime

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On 2/14/2020 at 4:43 PM, jankap said:

Newer is not better, the 2-digit M has a long way to go still.:P

Another point is the building of color. The Foveon sensor creates - most of the time - decent colors, despite its different concept. So in the M line it should be possible to create for the M10 the same colors as in the M9. Is not that a task for the developers of the Color Lookup Table? I cannot believe, that the transport of the electric charge can  influence this (CCD vs CMOS). 

Most likely, there is a difference in the colour filters. The exact filter characteristics affect what is captured and no amount of look up table sophistication can address that. You have only three colours in your filter array, each has a spectrum of transmission and a degree of overlap. There is also signal cross-talk between the pixels both by photons and electrons. Filters may also ‘leak’ at longer wavelengths and require IR cut. Companies in Japan have made colour filter chemicals for wafer foundries around the world, but not everyone used the same filters. Some of those filter chemicals were obsoleted due to cost or environmental restrictions or for compatibility with changes in processing. Things have changed so colours you see from M9 may not be easily reproduced.

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jmahto

jmahto

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I got this from my secret sources... Leica follows a simple formula to decide when to introduce a new camera. Until total number of pictures shot thru M10 equal or exceed M240, they won’t introduce a new camera. Therefore if you want M11 then shoot more with M10 or discourage others to use M240. 

It is like parents telling kids to finish the first cookie before asking for the 2nd  

😀

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Paulus

Paulus

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Am 14.2.2020 um 22:39 schrieb Tailwagger:

 The digital age may have obscured the notion, but AFAICT a bump to the numeric designation occurs when there is a significant change to the physical packaging, not the guts.  We might not see an M11 for decades, if the current body can accommodate whatever they have in store for us.

What we see is versions of an M10 Monochrom appearing in short time. In the past, this was followed by a new type of camera shortly :

 https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M-Special-Editions?utm_source=crm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=7011i000000DeseAAC&utm_term=https%3A%2F%2Fspecial-editions.leica-camera.com.

 

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adan

adan

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1 hour ago, Paulus said:

What we see is versions of an M10 Monochrom appearing in short time. In the past, this was followed by a new type of camera shortly :

As it always says in investment prospectuses, "Past performance is no guarantee of future results." ;)

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Tailwagger

Tailwagger

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2 hours ago, Paulus said:

What we see is versions of an M10 Monochrom appearing in short time. In the past, this was followed by a new type of camera shortly :

 https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M-Special-Editions?utm_source=crm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=7011i000000DeseAAC&utm_term=https%3A%2F%2Fspecial-editions.leica-camera.com.

 

I think we all expect that we will see a color version of the monochrom sensor in a M body sooner rather than later. That wasn't my point.  The point is, while such a camera will have a new designation to distinguish it,  X or R as has been discussed, what history has shown is that the numeric designation changes when the body design does. Given all the criticism of the 240 body thickness and the effort expend on the slimmer packaging of the M10, I don't think we'll see a bump to M11, unless the next gen, for example, includes IBIS or a larger battery and there is a change to the physical packaging.  So while it's highly likely we will see a new M sometime this year, it seems more likely for that camera to be designated an M10 something rather than an M11, unless there is a break from tradition.

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