IkarusJohn Posted January 24, 2017 Share #81 Posted January 24, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Andy, when you open the shutters, you get more light; your iris adjusts the amount of light hitting the retina; and the processor between your ears makes sense of the image ... I have fair skin - without adjusting the sensitivity of my skin, I get burnt! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here Bad M10 ISO dial is bad. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pop Posted January 24, 2017 Share #82 Posted January 24, 2017 No! No! No! It's third. But then again, fifth. What's all this with the level of importance? The brightness value of any pixel in the captured image is the product of the amount of the incident light, the reflectance of thing being depicted, the square of the diameter of the aperture, the exposure time, the sensitivity of the sensor, the amplification of the sensor signal, the multiplication of the digitized value and some constant value, divided by the square distance of the lens from the sensor, the density of the filters, the density of the CFA and other obstructions in front of the sensor. Now which level is the exposure time, and why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 24, 2017 Share #83 Posted January 24, 2017 Very amusing, Pop. Arthur, lighten up. ISO could be a quaternary level of control, for all anyone cares - the fact is, with aperture, shutter speed and ISO, it is relevant to correct exposure, and it is useful having direct control on the camera. Some like it, some don't. I think it's a great idea, as on just about every camera up to the digital age, there was direct control. You will recall that expsoure compensation (strange phrase that) was little more than an ISO adjustment ... As I won't be buying an M10, it matters neither here nor there to me. The discussion is all the more amusing as this seems to be a distinction looking for a purpose in life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted January 25, 2017 Share #84 Posted January 25, 2017 Lets face it, ISO is the only primary exposure function. It is why any sensor is able to record anything. It could expose an image without either a shutter or an aperture device (diaphragm), other than the native aperture of an image forming lens. Even then, the lens is superfluous if you just want to make 'contact' images. Forgive my semantics as I do understand what everyone is saying (I think), but is not really important since the argument is only about 'what to call it'! Are we mad or what? P.S. I've just come back from making pictures and the first thing I set was ISO, second aperture and then let my Hasselblad choose a shutter speed, that I approved. 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Hmm! PP.S. Don't misunderstand me, I am tongue in cheek, but I believe it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 25, 2017 Share #85 Posted January 25, 2017 Actually on cameras just before digital it was a bar code on the film , before that you set it every time you decided to change film Honestly That's true - I can't imagine how the processing would work if you changed the ISO half way through a roll; but then, when you used exposure compensation, that's exactly what you did ... I'm sure you had a point, Arthur, but it seems lost in endless exchanges. I referred to the ISO dial on film cameras, not because anyone changed ISO (except as part of exposure compensation), but because the dial was located top left. Just bear in mind that when you say that ISO is not an exposure parameter, every single exposure meter has three adjustments - ISO, aperture and shutter. They are all directly linked in every meter reading. The expression "exposure compensation" relates to an ISO change! Now, there is a point made by Jaap that if sensors could be made with a floating ISO with no loss in quality (or fixed, if you prefer with all adjustments then made in post processing without any loss) then that might be interesting. In practical terms, it would be a nightmare, I suspect, as it would change the way I shoot; that is hardly a big deal. The fact is that if every photo is taken with manual settings, say ISO100, f/4 @1/500th regardless of any EV reading and adjusted in post, the result wouldn't be close to getting it as close to right in camera in the first place. The noise, banding and grain would be horrendous, all because the gain was not set at the start so that sensible aperture and shutter settings could be made in the first place. I think I exhausted this subject some pages ago, and I have fallen into the trap of an exchange which has become uncoupled with the subject matter. I'll leave it there. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 25, 2017 Share #86 Posted January 25, 2017 If I owned an M10, I'd have it pulled up when shooting and only push it down if shooting outdoors in bright light (ISO 100 is actually one of the most appealing new features for me). This is exactly how I use the dial...not sure why there is so much drama regarding this feature. Ive quickly come to love the new dial. If you don't own the camera reserve judgement until you've actually used it for a few days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hteasley Posted January 25, 2017 Author Share #87 Posted January 25, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wow, this meandered a fair way... I like the looks of the dial, all M3ish and all, and I agree easy ISO setting is a good thing, while too easy ISO setting is an annoying thing. I just wish the actuality of the dial were better. For instance, the pull up has to be perfectly straight, which means taking the camera away from your eye, and pulling up on it with two fingers (and, unless it shows a character of breaking in, I found I had to hook my fingernails under the top lip of the dial to get it to pop up). To my way of thinking, I would have preferred that the dial could tolerate being pushed up with a single finger: push it up with your left index finger while the camera is to your eye. But the dial does not seem to tolerate that sort of diagonal force. It's a pity: it would not have been hard to do so, I can't imagine. With the 240, as I said, there's no menu fiddling. Hold the ISO button down with the camera at your eye, you see the ISO in the RF, and thumbwheel adjusts it, all in shooting pose with easy to reach controls. The wheel looks nicer, but performs worse, as I see it. There are a lot of ways it could have been better: design it to be able to be pushed up; have a lock button on the back that, when held in by a finger that is already there when in shooting position, allows the dial to be spun relatively freely; allow the dial to be button-click unlocked, and then spun freely; implement a lock toggle on the left side of the camera that can be slid by a single finger, which then allows the wheel to be spun; there are tons of ways to skin this cat, have a better UI, not have a worse UI that the predecessor camera, and have all the virtues that the wheel provides. Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted January 25, 2017 Share #88 Posted January 25, 2017 Sorry, Gordon. The ISO value of film is the nominal sensitivity of the emulsion to light and varies per film type. (And with development;)) The light sensitivity of the sensor is invariable per sensor type and we call it base ISO. -Which, incidentally, is determined by the manufacturer and is not universally defined across the industry.- What is misleadingly called ISO setting of the camera determines the handling of the immutable signal out of the sensor. On quite a few cameras, including the M8 and M9 it is a simple gain control, which means one can just as well (or better) leave the camera at base ISO or the gain setting (ISO) which allows maximum exposure latitude, underexpose and leave the ISO adjustment to the more powerful algorithms of the postprocessing software. The ISO setting on the camera is purely for user convenience - i.e. getting a decent LCD image, handling exposure warnings, preparing for the in-camera JPG, etc. And, on some cameras, will trigger inbuilt noise-reduction software. You are right that the ISO setting affects the noise - the noise from the sensor receiving less light by the underexposure is amplified along with the image signal. Hi Jaap, Almost no modern digital camera just uses a simple gain up amplification at increased ISO's. All cameras that I am aware of also have modified colour and noise profiles for each ISO value. As such simply adding "4 stops in Lightroom" doesn't produce the same result as changing the in camera ISO. Even if the noise profile is unchanged then colour almost always is. The M9 was closest to ISO less in colour information but still there were some differences. With the SL and M240 there are noticeable difference in colour information when changing the ISO versus pushing in post. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted January 25, 2017 Share #89 Posted January 25, 2017 Maybe time for a poll Having now got the camera I think the dial is practical, secure and works. Punkt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 25, 2017 Share #90 Posted January 25, 2017 I find the ISO wheel is a very nice compromise between function and the goal to keep the M10 as close to its genes as possible. I like to be able to see the set ISO value even before turning the camera on. I find changing it with the wheel is as fast as changing it with button/wheel in the M type 240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 25, 2017 Share #91 Posted January 25, 2017 Has anyone tried it with gloves on ? you know we the north sometimes do need gloves to brave the outdoors. I did yesterday, with thin gloves it works fine, I wouldn't want to have to do it with thick Ski-gloves. But then I wouldn't want to change ISO with thick gloves on the M9/M 240 etc, and for sure I wouldn't want to have to use RX100V or a FujiXT2 or a Oly EM1 with thick gloves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblutter Posted January 25, 2017 Share #92 Posted January 25, 2017 Has anyone tried it with gloves on ? you know we the north sometimes do need gloves to brave the outdoors. And how easy is to navigate 240's menu with winter gloves on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 25, 2017 Share #93 Posted January 25, 2017 Hi Jaap, Almost no modern digital camera just uses a simple gain up amplification at increased ISO's. All cameras that I am aware of also have modified colour and noise profiles for each ISO value. As such simply adding "4 stops in Lightroom" doesn't produce the same result as changing the in camera ISO. Even if the noise profile is unchanged then colour almost always is. The M9 was closest to ISO less in colour information but still there were some differences. With the SL and M240 there are noticeable difference in colour information when changing the ISO versus pushing in post. Gordon Yes of course, Gordon, but these profiles still don't change the output of the sensor. In theory one could mimic them in postprocessing. I'm not saying that would be a practical thing to do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted January 25, 2017 Share #94 Posted January 25, 2017 I managed to use both M9 and M7 in the Antarctic, wearing two pair of gloves. One pair, inner gloves were fine wool for warmth, the outer pair were some fabric to cut the wind chill. All was fine until I had to change film in the M7! I forgot to tie a a short wool thread to the base plate lever so I could open it. Only solution was to remove the gloves from one hand. Yes, there is always going to be a situation when the camera of your choice can be less than perfect for what you are needing to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 26, 2017 Share #95 Posted January 26, 2017 This is for the folks who love high ISO. We can keep arguing whether ISO is the same level of control till cows come home, but the fact remains that there is serious loss of DR as you turn ISO dial. As for myself, I try to keep ISO lowest by adjusting f and t. YMMV. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268577-bad-m10-iso-dial-is-bad/?do=findComment&comment=3197445'>More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 26, 2017 Share #96 Posted January 26, 2017 Of course raising ISO reduces DR...nobody is disputing this. at some point adjusting "f and t" you run out off f and t...this is when we raise ISO. The debate is whether just underexposing and pulling in LR results in better IQ than raising ISO. I think you have to find a balance...but simple underexposing 4 stops vs raising ISO is a bad idea imo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 26, 2017 Share #97 Posted January 26, 2017 Of course raising ISO reduces DR...nobody is disputing this. at some point adjusting "f and t" you run out off f and t...this is when we raise ISO. The debate is whether just underexposing and pulling in LR results in better IQ than raising ISO. I think you have to find a balance...but simple underexposing 4 stops vs raising ISO is a bad idea imo Highlight mine... precisely. The debate (if you want to call that ) was all mixed up. From knob design to primary/secondary control of ISO to increase ISO in-camera/in-LR.... I stopped keeping track afterwards. Going back to the ISO control, with M10, Leica decided to give direct control to ISO, just like f and t. This affects how one uses the camera. As you noted, if one tries to expose with ISO adjustment (while there is room for f & t), you end up loosing DR. If one knows what they are doing then it will be fine (I guess that includes all of us here), however if you let camera haptics decide the usage then one may end up with sub optimal results. Update: I wanted to add an example of how camera haptics may dictate the usage. You go into evening in-doors and turn the knob to ISO3200 (thinking there is less light) and start shooting. But it may happen that there is more light indoors and you might by able to lower ISO while still managing the desired shutterspeed. In this case if you start with ISO dial fixed, you will end up with less DR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted January 26, 2017 Share #98 Posted January 26, 2017 I love the ISO dial. It does not matter whether the iso-value is a primary or secondary parameter. As was proven with the Leica M-D an ISO-dial allows the operation of the camera without display. That is the whole purpose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 26, 2017 Share #99 Posted January 26, 2017 Sounds like you two are in agreement. With the M9, I started out in Manual (i.e., not aperture priority), leaving ISO to do its own thing. I soon found I couldn't work out what the camera was doing with the ISO, and the Auto setting introduced a level of uncertainty I didn't need. I still do this with he Monochrom, but all other cameras, I set everything manually. Like Jayant, I try to keep ISO low, and I set it for the conditions - sometimes I need to adjust it on the go, and I can see that the ISO dial (apart from looking rather good) would be useful - I certainly like the way it covers the lower range of ISO settings; I don't understand why Leica provides for such unusable high ISO - what on earth is the point, if the image quality degrades so quickly above 6400? Truth is, the M60 (like the film cameras) has the lovely big ISO dial on the back, and the SL has the bottom right button programmed for a long press to change ISO - I don't need to take my eye from the viewfinder. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted January 26, 2017 Share #100 Posted January 26, 2017 Which is why I like to use Auto Iso and keep the shutter speed at a speed I'm confident I can hold it still enough and make sure I don't go too mad with ISO to keep DR. I tend to limit my M-P to 1600 or 2000, which may seem a little overcautious to some. In low light, I tend to use B&W most of the time, it just seems so much more appropriate, so you have a little more wriggle room... and ultra sharp and non-blurry with perfect colour and white balance in low light isn't exactly a priority for me in B&W shots of this type. A little bit of motion blur, narrow depth of field and underexposed shadows looks fine to me... I don't want a night shot to look like day anyway... If the M10 allows a little more ISO, similar to the first MM, then I'll be happy. Although I am more likely to get the M10 when the M10-P is available in a couple of years. I'll feel my M240P has then paid for itself by then. I'm not entirely sure the ISO dial on the M10 is all that important... although I'm quite prepared to accept I may change my mind in use... But if it isn't, I am not bothered about things I may not use, anyway. I ignored the video button on my M-P all this time and it never gave me the level of concern or anxiety that it seems to instil in some M users...! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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