Dirk Mandeville Posted April 1, 2017 Share #341 Posted April 1, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually Dirk, this isn't true at all. Many people have voiced that opinion, but it is actually just their opinion. It has no basis in fact at all... and simply repeating the same thing over and over again does NOT make that opinion any more true than it was when someone first made that assertion. So I would strongly disagree that it has been 'debunked many times'. It quite simply hasn't. Bill, I agree with much of your analysis and actually I, too, sympathize with users like Jaap who have lost functionality they desired, even though I am personally quite happy with the decision to delete said functionality. But as for debunking Jaap's argument, I have to first state that his argument that video "doesn't take anything away from the camera" is in itself not fact nor necessarily based on fact. It is a subjective opinion, and one that is not shared by myself and others. I have made many arguments in this and other threads, complete with facts, reasonable inferences from facts, logical analysis, and certainly some of my own assumptions and opinions, which I feel pretty thoroughly debunk the notion that keeping video has no impacts on the camera design or utility for those who don't care about video. Which is why I made the statement. None of those arguments are likely to matter to Jaap and others, because they care enough about video to overlook the potential impacts it has on camera design and utility and dismiss arguments to the contrary as irrelevant. But to someone like me, who doesn't want video in an M camera for some very specific reasons, those arguments provide substantial justification for Leica's decision to remove video. I just get frustrated when I see these offhand comments insinuating that including video has no impact on non-video users, with no factual justification for such conclusion, while all the reasons I and others have given to suggest the opposite are never addressed. I just don't wish to continue to re-state the same arguments over and over in response to these statements. Ultimately, it is all subjective opinion because whether or not something is considered a limitation that negatively impacts the user experience is completely subjective. Jaap's reasoning is valid to him. My reasoning is valid to me. And Leica seems to have made their decision based on their own analysis of all of this. And I dare say they have more actual relevant facts at their disposal to make that call than any of us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 Hi Dirk Mandeville, Take a look here So how long before video capture functionality arrives?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
FlashGordonPhotography Posted April 1, 2017 Share #342 Posted April 1, 2017 HaHa. Funny you should put it like that. Seems like this is the attitude Leica is currently taking toward those lamenting removal of video from the M. I get your points, and it's always possible Leica could come up with some sort of compromise that would be acceptable to everyone. Who knows? Maybe they will add video back to the M10P, just as another carrot to purchase the upgraded model. Anything is possible, but I wouldn't guess that it's highly probable. Well currently, Leica hasn't removed video from the M. The type 240 remains available, admittedly with a sensor with slightly less DR than the current one. Who knows what Leica has planned? Maybe a chubby M will remain, with video. Leica could continue that line. Bigger camera with video and a bigger battery. After all these are the people who made a black and white only camera a success as well as a digital camera without a screen or a menu. There certainly seems to be some demand for video. It just doesn't seem that it would be easy to implement in the M10 body. Or they could make an M10-P that accepts a grip with all the video stuff and really get it right. But I don't think that's what occasional users want either. Push hard and in 18 months, instead of an M10-P you might get a type 248 with the updated sensor, RF and processor in a 240 body and get 5K off the sensor via a grip and 4K internally. I actually think I'd prefer that than a cosmetic upgrade to the M10. Keep everybody happy. Or nobody..... Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted April 1, 2017 Share #343 Posted April 1, 2017 Dirk, You have actually quite neatly sidestepped the point I was making. There is no negative impact on the performance of the 240 series as a still camera that is caused by having video that has been presented on here... or anywhere else for that matter. I would be interested if you could point to something that actually 'debunks' that premise from a solid technical point of view, not mere opinion. I suspect I will be waiting a long time. How people 'feel' about video, on the other hand, is a very different argument and is of course, subjective. I just think you are giving Jaap an unnecessarily hard time over a point that is merely conjecture... albeit, conjecture shared by a number of people, and with little or no technical information to back it up. On the other hand, there is plenty that shows the opposite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 1, 2017 Share #344 Posted April 1, 2017 Funny thing - the original Leica was meant as an exposure meter for movie... Didn't last long in that role though did it ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnySeven Posted April 1, 2017 Share #345 Posted April 1, 2017 So how long do you think it will take before the M10 video version comes out? Ain't gonna happen. That's like saying "when do you think they will come up with a 4 wheel drive bottle of wine". M10's don't have video. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stef63 Posted April 1, 2017 Share #346 Posted April 1, 2017 There is no negative impact on the performance of the 240 series as a still camera that is caused by having video that has been presented on here... or anywhere else for that matter. I would be interested if you could point to something that actually 'debunks' that premise from a solid technical point of view, not mere opinion. I suspect I will be waiting a long time. That might be true but we all know that video on the M240 was not "exceptional" to say the least. To make it on par with current video offerings from the competition the negative impact on the M10 could possibly be ... well ... maybe negative. I'm not sure it would, but only Leica has the evidence of the impact it would take to add video to the M10. We are talking here about Leica deciding to remove some sort of video capability from the M10 they think customers today are expecting from a Leica camera. We are not talking about Leica copying the video features of the old M240 over to their new flagship M, are we? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted April 1, 2017 Share #347 Posted April 1, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) That might be true but we all know that video on the M240 was not "exceptional" to say the least. To make it on par with current video offerings from the competition the negative impact on the M10 could possibly be ... well ... maybe negative. I'm not sure it would, but only Leica has the evidence of the impact it would take to add video to the M10. We are talking here about Leica deciding to remove some sort of video capability from the M10 they think customers today are expecting from a Leica camera. We are not talking about Leica copying the video features of the old M240 over to their new flagship M, are we? No... of course not. Did you read my earlier reply? Post 339 on the previous page. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 1, 2017 Share #348 Posted April 1, 2017 So how long do you think it will take before the M10 video version comes out? NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. Got it? The M10 is for traditional still photographers and it is thoroughly considered to deliver our experience. You must be a troll. Ignore file! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted April 1, 2017 Share #349 Posted April 1, 2017 Dirk, You have actually quite neatly sidestepped the point I was making. There is no negative impact on the performance of the 240 series as a still camera that is caused by having video that has been presented on here... or anywhere else for that matter. First of all, you are moving the goalposts here. The discussion originally arose from Jaap's contention that all video adds to the camera is a button which the user can choose not to push if they don't want video (which is demonstrably false) to you now phrasing the argument as "no negative impact on performance as a still camera in the M240." I guess that would depend on how narrowly you define performance. If performance is defined to include considerations of size, user functionality, and simplicity of use, then I would argue that the M10 does perform better than the M240 in part because they dropped the video. You can argue that 3mm doesn't make any difference in performance, but ever since Leica came out with digital cameras, users have been requesting they bring the body back down to the size of the film M's. And I have seen a lot of glowing reports from photographers happy that they have done so. Making the camera thinner makes a difference to the user experience and increases the "performance" as a still camera in the minds of photographers. And as for the button you can "choose not to push," there are many reports of users inadvertently pushing this button and taking video without realizing it, which eats up camera battery and card space, thereby reducing the "performance" of the camera for still photography. Finally, you seem to be making your argument specifically referring to the difference between the M240 and the M10, without any consideration that these features will evolve through future models and what that might entail. Throughout this thread and others, I have been looking at this argument from Leica's perspective in making this decision. Not just considering the M10 itself, but the future evolution of the M line. That, to me, is where the biggest danger of video lies, because video buffs have a history of always wanting more features to be added. Mind you, Jaap may not care about added features. But others will, and they will push for it. Many reviewers roundly panned the video function of the M240, which puts pressure on Leica to improve it. This results in camera bloat and waste of development resources which I believe will inevitably impact the performance and usability of future cameras for still photography. In my mind, Leica made the correct decision to remove the video entirely and focus all their design efforts on maximizing the performance and usability of the camera for its primary purpose, still photography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 1, 2017 Share #350 Posted April 1, 2017 Well currently, Leica hasn't removed video from the M. The type 240 remains available, admittedly with a sensor with slightly less DR than the current one. Who knows what Leica has planned? Maybe a chubby M will remain, with video. Leica could continue that line. Bigger camera with video and a bigger battery. After all these are the people who made a black and white only camera a success as well as a digital camera without a screen or a menu. There certainly seems to be some demand for video. It just doesn't seem that it would be easy to implement in the M10 body. Or they could make an M10-P that accepts a grip with all the video stuff and really get it right. But I don't think that's what occasional users want either. Push hard and in 18 months, instead of an M10-P you might get a type 248 with the updated sensor, RF and processor in a 240 body and get 5K off the sensor via a grip and 4K internally. I actually think I'd prefer that than a cosmetic upgrade to the M10. Keep everybody happy. Or nobody..... Gordon Yes, but the video on the M240 is in need of updating... And i doubt whether Leica will push the fully featured M line. Better to bolster the SL. -Commercially, that is. My fear (and i think the fear of other M photographers who use their camera tools to the full extent of their capability) is that the M will be marginalized to a retro stills camera in a shrinking niche. The Wesentliche marketing certainly points in that direction. The best we can hope for is a decent EVF M mount camera in a more acceptable form factor than the SL beside the M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted April 1, 2017 Share #351 Posted April 1, 2017 The best we can hope for is a decent EVF M mount camera in a more acceptable form factor than the SL beside the M. Quite. Something that I have been advocating for some time. Although for me, I would quite like the form factor to be very much the same as the M10. Then I could have one of each. An RF and an EVF M camera in two virtually identical bodies. Bliss... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted April 1, 2017 Share #352 Posted April 1, 2017 .... And as for the button you can "choose not to push," there are many reports of users inadvertently pushing this button and taking video without realizing it, which eats up camera battery and card space, thereby reducing the "performance" of the camera for still photography. ... Well... that has been addressed in M240 long long time ago... this falsehood has been repeated so many times that many believe that it is a real hindrance. It is not. Simply disable the button. As for everyone insisting that I carry a second camera for video, here is a situation from my walk this morning. I came across a very cute squirrel busy with munching on grass seeds. Her actions were so cute that I could not resist pressing the video button (I was using Nex6) and record a short video. I could not have recorded the same view (using 135mm) with my iPhone and was not carrying second camera. In fact how many folks go on a leisurely walk with 2 cameras! The picture is here. https://flic.kr/p/SemAbv You and many here are insisting that you want the perfect M that should not be burdened by not so important features. Wait till some purist demand that visio/LV be taken out since core M is for 28-90mm range. By removing LV, one can argue that better heat management can be done to gain extra DR stop..... if we do go that path then where does it stop? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted April 2, 2017 Share #353 Posted April 2, 2017 Here is an idea for Leica.. Make a video only M rangefinder... Yup that's right... video only... No stills...lol... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 2, 2017 Share #354 Posted April 2, 2017 You would have to carry two cameras again. Guess which one will be left at home. The less versatile one - the M10... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted April 2, 2017 Share #355 Posted April 2, 2017 Well... that has been addressed in M240 long long time ago... this falsehood has been repeated so many times that many believe that it is a real hindrance. It is not. Simply disable the button. As for everyone insisting that I carry a second camera for video, here is a situation from my walk this morning. I came across a very cute squirrel busy with munching on grass seeds. Her actions were so cute that I could not resist pressing the video button (I was using Nex6) and record a short video. I could not have recorded the same view (using 135mm) with my iPhone and was not carrying second camera. In fact how many folks go on a leisurely walk with 2 cameras! The picture is here. https://flic.kr/p/SemAbv You and many here are insisting that you want the perfect M that should not be burdened by not so important features. Wait till some purist demand that visio/LV be taken out since core M is for 28-90mm range. By removing LV, one can argue that better heat management can be done to gain extra DR stop..... if we do go that path then where does it stop? I could. On my Moto Z. I bought the cool Hasselblad camera attachment exactly for this purpose and clip it onto my phone regularly when out walking the dog. M10 over my shoulder Motoblad in my back pocket.... Has IS and AF as well. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted April 2, 2017 Share #356 Posted April 2, 2017 Then L could make... A leaf shutter ver M10 w/lens..for more versatile flash sync... And then... a mono M10.. Then the MD version.. Then a 6K video version.. It really is endless.. Endless Leica luv...lol.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted April 2, 2017 Share #357 Posted April 2, 2017 So how long do you think it will take before the M10 video version comes out? I'm in the television as source of the income since 1991. And from my experience as insider I could tell you one simple thing. If person or organization does not have money for true VIDEO camera, they could buy camera which does both. Or they don't know how video camera works. In case if you are just an amateur who wants M10 it is totally understandable. Believe me, as amateur to amateur in photography, iPhone will do great video. Have M10 for great pictures, use mobile phone for next to professional quality video. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted April 2, 2017 Share #358 Posted April 2, 2017 My fear (and i think the fear of other M photographers who use their camera tools to the full extent of their capability) is that the M will be marginalized to a retro stills camera in a shrinking niche. The Wesentliche marketing certainly points in that direction. But, prior to the M240, hasn't the M always been "a retro stills camera in a shrinking niche?" Did adding video to the M240 really change that (other than the stills-only aspect)? It's still a retro camera. The niche is still (supposedly) shrinking. And yet, they continue to sell as many cameras as they can produce, and at an exhorbitant price, no less. I would hardly call that marginalized. The M as a modern digital rangefinder camera has finally come into its own with the M10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted April 2, 2017 Share #359 Posted April 2, 2017 I could. On my Moto Z. I bought the cool Hasselblad camera attachment exactly for this purpose and clip it onto my phone regularly when out walking the dog. M10 over my shoulder Motoblad in my back pocket.... Has IS and AF as well. Gordon How's that for Das Wesentliche for a phone? Do you know how often people missed making calls with their phones because the indavertently touched the video recording button and only realized that something was amiss when the batterey had drained? Or how many filled all of their storage with movies of the inside of their pockets? How is taking a video necessary or even desired in a device meant to wirelessly talk to people over some distance, perhaps in an emergency. I would think that among the members of this here forum there must be quite a few geezers who find it necessary to be able to fetch an ambulance on short notice. Would they put that capability at risk by using a phone that also does videos? No way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 2, 2017 Share #360 Posted April 2, 2017 But, prior to the M240, hasn't the M always been "a retro stills camera in a shrinking niche?" Did adding video to the M240 really change that (other than the stills-only aspect)? It's still a retro camera. The niche is still (supposedly) shrinking. And yet, they continue to sell as many cameras as they can produce, and at an exhorbitant price, no less. I would hardly call that marginalized. The M as a modern digital rangefinder camera has finally come into its own with the M10. No, not really, Yes, it was a stills camera, how could it be otherwise? Leica tried to keep abreast of the times, adding a rapid rewind crank, Visoflex housing, goggled lenses, closeup lenses, more framelines, TTL metering in two attempts, TTL flash, DX reader, in fact anything that could be added to refine the product. -And got dragged screaming into the digital age with the M8 More simply wasn't possible through lack of technology. The shrinking niche was caused by the basic technology that didn't allow more modern features to be implemented. The M 240 CMos gave Leica not only the option of video. It gave live-view and the EVF, expanding the whole system with a galaxy of lenses. and widening the niche. For me those were the sole reasons to buy it. If that Wesentliche had been a real philosophy of returning to the experience of basic stills photography the M10 should not have had LV and EVF. Those add as much or more complication as the video aspect ever did. The LCD is defensible as being inherent to digital photography, but in the last consequence the M10 should have been without as well, and really the size and shape of a film M. If you are anti-video you must be by the same logic be anti-EVF and anti-LV. (and anti-WiFi by the same token) Should Leica have come straight out and said: :"Sadly Video had to go as it was, for technical reasons, impossible to incorporate in this body size, but our aim is to reintroduce it in a future model, possibly in a hi-tech M line beside a stripped version" I would have accepted it without question, but to turn it into a design philosophy with a marketing label turns the whole M concept into an increasingly archaic tool. A dead end to my mind. I like Leica rangefinders very much and have been using them for more than forty years, but I have always been using them to the very limits of their technical capabilities. You seem to be forgetting that I have been doing wildlife photography with Leica M cameras, advocating them for rugged travel use, promoting (amazingly good and easy btw) Macro work on this forum , etc. I have been writing articles like "Henri in Africa" to show that the Monochrom was perfectly usable as a Safari camera http://www.the.me/henri-in-africa-the-leica-monochrom-as-a-travel-camera/, "Mit die Leica in der Hand" to advocate the Monochrom as a skiing travel tool http://www.the.me/die-leica-in-der-hand-the-monochrom-goes-into-the-snow/ . And I am supposed to be happy that Leica took a 180º turn in their future roadmap for the system by limiting the camera to light street, fine art and family snapshot work? It is not the video per se, but the paradigm shift. Before there was a progression, from ever-improved and expanded film Ms to the digital M8, the FF M9, the M240 which opened the window to the modern photographic possibilities - and present-day needs. We do live in a progressing and expanding world (at least in some respects) For the specialists there were the offshoots, from the limited M2, M1, MDA, in the film times to the Monochrome and LCD-less M240 variants The trend has been reversed, with Leica turning inwards to refine the "simple stills camera without bells and whistles" A shrinking niche in a back-eddy of time, and ultimately a dead end to my mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.