waterlenz Posted January 25, 2017 Share #61 Posted January 25, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Reports in other threads not not inspire confidence in the M10. For example: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268663-sd-card-compatibility-issue/?do=findComment&comment=3196817 I really want "to believe" but am finding it difficult. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 Hi waterlenz, Take a look here Leica M10 vs M240, M9, M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
uhoh7 Posted January 26, 2017 Share #62 Posted January 26, 2017 @Hubertus TY so much for your synopsis of M10 and comparison to 262. Combine Sean's page with free Ming's blog and you have everything you want to know about photography. There.. I helped everybody... I made a post over at Ming's, who I also like, but who has not mentioned a word about the M10. He gets a free Hassie now I think. He had a travel centered post up, and I said: "so, we are ignoring M10?" "Well, if somebody is going to send me one and pay for the time to review it, I won’t ignore it. I have no use or justification for one at that price and Leica’s (poor) historical reliability level, not to mention the attitude of local distribution in my part of the world." I pressed further, he replied: "There was no Leica bashing in my reply, and you forget the fact that I’ve bought two M8s, one M9-P, one Q, a dozen lenses in the past – never mind almost all of them having mechanical or electronic issues. I was merely stating facts: An M10 and even one lens would cost thousands of dollars. I don’t need it, nor am I interested in it, nor do I have the money to spare. My work with Hasselblad is non-exclusive (which I’ve also clearly stated in the past) and I own and use equipment from a lot of other brands. Hasselblad doesn’t even make a competing product to the M!" Which is fair enough, LOL, but I thought he was a bit sensitive, but maybe I was kidding him too hard. Here you can read it all: https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/12/10/new-video-t1-travel-photography/#more-13937 I never had a Sony last a year myself without a trip to Texas, but I'm very hard on cameras. I ski with them and ride/hike in backcountry often. M9 has took a new shutter at 150K, that's it. It is a very tough camera, and 240 is tougher. I would love a M10, honestly, but I have budgetary concerns, and the M9 is great for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 26, 2017 Share #63 Posted January 26, 2017 I believe that Ming was treated rather badly by the local Leica representatives when he reviewed the SL and 24-90 zoom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted January 26, 2017 Share #64 Posted January 26, 2017 I believe that Ming was treated rather badly by the local Leica representatives when he reviewed the SL and 24-90 zoom. I missed that review, did he hate it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 26, 2017 Share #65 Posted January 26, 2017 @Hubertus TY so much for your synopsis of M10 and comparison to 262. I made a post over at Ming's, who I also like, but who has not mentioned a word about the M10. He gets a free Hassie now I think. He had a travel centered post up, and I said: "so, we are ignoring M10?" "Well, if somebody is going to send me one and pay for the time to review it, I won’t ignore it. I have no use or justification for one at that price and Leica’s (poor) historical reliability level, not to mention the attitude of local distribution in my part of the world." I pressed further, he replied: "There was no Leica bashing in my reply, and you forget the fact that I’ve bought two M8s, one M9-P, one Q, a dozen lenses in the past – never mind almost all of them having mechanical or electronic issues. I was merely stating facts: An M10 and even one lens would cost thousands of dollars. I don’t need it, nor am I interested in it, nor do I have the money to spare. My work with Hasselblad is non-exclusive (which I’ve also clearly stated in the past) and I own and use equipment from a lot of other brands. Hasselblad doesn’t even make a competing product to the M!" Which is fair enough, LOL, but I thought he was a bit sensitive, but maybe I was kidding him too hard. Here you can read it all: https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/12/10/new-video-t1-travel-photography/#more-13937 I never had a Sony last a year myself without a trip to Texas, but I'm very hard on cameras. I ski with them and ride/hike in backcountry often. M9 has took a new shutter at 150K, that's it. It is a very tough camera, and 240 is tougher. I would love a M10, honestly, but I have budgetary concerns, and the M9 is great for me. I like Ming's blog. His non technical articles are very good. I like that. I don't go to his site for equipment review since he doesn't cover everything. That's fine with me. I also remember him very enthusiastic about Q. In fact for quite some time, it was his go to camera for street and such. I also like the fact that he takes the time to reply (and not just smiley or thanks in the reply) to each and every comment on his article. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 26, 2017 Share #66 Posted January 26, 2017 Reports in other threads not not inspire confidence in the M10. For example: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268663-sd-card-compatibility-issue/?do=findComment&comment=3196817 I really want "to believe" but am finding it difficult. The card he was using was being used in the M240 at the store. That means, the M10 is not going to display the M240 images. The M10 does show the image number. This is not a problem with the M10 rather the user. If, you listen to Lloyd, he doesn't know what he is doing much of the time as I've owned cameras he has reviewed and he gets so much wrong in his reviews then, he moves on to the next problem camera. He makes money stirring the pot. Sean Reid likes vegetables and is not much of a photographer. He makes money selling minutia. He is lost photographing the board in his garage of brick-a brack. This isn't photography, its some sort of perversion. I suggest you get the camera and decide for yourself. If, I'd had 1/100th the problems reported by these guys and on the forums I'd have never bought any camera. There must be a reason they have so many concerns and problems? Anyway, the M10 so far is amazing. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 26, 2017 Share #67 Posted January 26, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Reports in other threads not not inspire confidence in the M10. For example: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268663-sd-card-compatibility-issue/?do=findComment&comment=3196817 I really want "to believe" but am finding it difficult. He "played with an M10 for about 10 minutes" and experienced user error. This should not be of any concern. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 26, 2017 Share #68 Posted January 26, 2017 I missed that review, did he hate it? He found focus shift in the zoom, told Leica, and feels he was treated badly, that's all. Left a very bad taste in his mouth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 26, 2017 Share #69 Posted January 26, 2017 It's all possible Mings reviews are good if you agree with the result. He has traditional not liked Sonys and Fujis for taste and prejudice reasons, so have always taken his reviews with a pinch of salt. He wrote an Article criticising the Sony A7 before he had ever seen one. The only consistent thing about Ming is that his PP technique is consistent and excellent if you like sharp and brittle, which I do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted January 27, 2017 Share #70 Posted January 27, 2017 The card he was using was being used in the M240 at the store. That means, the M10 is not going to display the M240 images. The M10 does show the image number. This is not a problem with the M10 rather the user. If, you listen to Lloyd, he doesn't know what he is doing much of the time as I've owned cameras he has reviewed and he gets so much wrong in his reviews then, he moves on to the next problem camera. He makes money stirring the pot. Sean Reid likes vegetables and is not much of a photographer. He makes money selling minutia. He is lost photographing the board in his garage of brick-a brack. This isn't photography, its some sort of perversion. I suggest you get the camera and decide for yourself. If, I'd had 1/100th the problems reported by these guys and on the forums I'd have never bought any camera. There must be a reason they have so many concerns and problems? Anyway, the M10 so far is amazing. Rick Thank you for your thoughts. My main reason for citing Lloyd was the deja vu feeling I got reading it. I and many other ended up being unpaid beta testers of the M8 - do not want to go through that again so am rather cautious. I do not have an easy reach dealer to work with either being in bush Alaska. So I am watching from a distance - looking for red flags. As well there is a competition for my funds with a new Mac laptop and 5K monitor being in the same price range - the red flag on that is the max 16G of RAM currently available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 27, 2017 Share #71 Posted January 27, 2017 One advantage of the M10 has not been mentioned yet - you will be able to remove the bellows-M without dismantling it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted January 27, 2017 Share #72 Posted January 27, 2017 About the "reports in other threads": If you go to a shop and find that your demo camera has a problem with the USB card, what would you do ? First write in a forum about it ? No, you would probably ask the shopkeeper to give you another (if possible completely new) card, to try again. Or if possible ask for another camera to try the card on. So whenever I read anything like that I wonder what is the motivation of this user. I have never encountered any problems with USB cards in any of the cameras bought (M246, SL, also CaNikon and Sony). And if I did I would first try several cards and then go to the shop to ask for advice. And then if nothing works, then I would probably write about it. But usually I would first ask the card maker why his card does not work, not the camera maker. Reading a single "report" would not give me a negative impression. It would need several reports - with people acting in a logical way. In the internet there is such an amount of nonsense and lies and false information, much of it written by humans, but more and more also generated by "clever" programs. For me this is much more a reason for concerns or for missing confidence.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted January 27, 2017 Share #73 Posted January 27, 2017 About the "reports in other threads": If you go to a shop and find that your demo camera has a problem with the USB card, what would you do ? First write in a forum about it ? No, you would probably ask the shopkeeper to give you another (if possible completely new) card, to try again. Or if possible ask for another camera to try the card on. So whenever I read anything like that I wonder what is the motivation of this user. I have never encountered any problems with USB cards in any of the cameras bought (M246, SL, also CaNikon and Sony). And if I did I would first try several cards and then go to the shop to ask for advice. And then if nothing works, then I would probably write about it. But usually I would first ask the card maker why his card does not work, not the camera maker. Reading a single "report" would not give me a negative impression. It would need several reports - with people acting in a logical way. In the internet there is such an amount of nonsense and lies and false information, much of it written by humans, but more and more also generated by "clever" programs. For me this is much more a reason for concerns or for missing confidence.. I am still puzzled that Leica retailer did not make sure they had a properly functional memory card (an SD card not a USB card - Universal Serial Bus is a type of computer connection) for the M10 before handing one over to a prospective customer. And this was at a "Leica Store" if I recall correctly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted January 28, 2017 Share #74 Posted January 28, 2017 He found focus shift in the zoom, told Leica, and feels he was treated badly, that's all. Left a very bad taste in his mouth. TY, I will have to look for that. But SL is AF and EVF/LCD, so what difference for focus shift? Can be a real problem with RF, yes. With mirrorless EVF all my sonnars are easy I agree, quirks or not, Ming has excellent blog, and is superb photographer. We can all take his prejudice here and there into account. Who does not have some? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted January 29, 2017 Share #75 Posted January 29, 2017 I am still puzzled that Leica retailer did not make sure they had a properly functional memory card (an SD card not a USB card - Universal Serial Bus is a type of computer connection) for the M10 before handing one over to a prospective customer. And this was at a "Leica Store" if I recall correctly. Sorry, I was somehow distracted - SD card of course. But still there is something fishy about this report - I do not simply go away if a camera does not work properly, I want a decent demo and ask the shop assistant for help. And won't leave until it either works or they declare that they cannot demo their product because it failed. (Which they never do). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 29, 2017 Share #76 Posted January 29, 2017 TY, I will have to look for that. But SL is AF and EVF/LCD, so what difference for focus shift? Can be a real problem with RF, yes. With mirrorless EVF all my sonnars are easy I agree, quirks or not, Ming has excellent blog, and is superb photographer. We can all take his prejudice here and there into account. Who does not have some? The problem was that the AF was centered on the lower edge of the focus box, causing front focus on oblique surfaces. Digiloyd saw it, but misdiagnosed it as focus shift. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 29, 2017 Share #77 Posted January 29, 2017 The problem was that the AF was centered on the lower edge of the focus box, causing front focus on oblique surfaces. Digiloyd saw it, but misdiagnosed it as focus shift. It was a rather tiny error, that few on this forum could reproduce and was resolved in the course of some final tuning of the camera and lens algorithms. That 24-90 is quite a complex lens, and its software manages a lot of things. So I suspect that several slightly marginal bits of engineering got finally tuned up in the second firmware release. The combination of reviewer chest-beating and Leica's traditional circumspection means that we will never know... scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 29, 2017 Share #78 Posted January 29, 2017 The problem was that the AF was centered on the lower edge of the focus box, causing front focus on oblique surfaces. Digiloyd saw it, but misdiagnosed it as focus shift. Having discussed this with Ming, I think that was a different issue. Yes, the AF had a problem, but it appears there was focus shift (not as bad as Ming & Lloyd stated - their comments were more than a bit OTT) - Leica fixed it straight away, so it probably never manifested itself for anyone else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted January 29, 2017 Share #79 Posted January 29, 2017 Sorry, I was somehow distracted - SD card of course. But still there is something fishy about this report - I do not simply go away if a camera does not work properly, I want a decent demo and ask the shop assistant for help. And won't leave until it either works or they declare that they cannot demo their product because it failed. (Which they never do). I would probably do the same as you especially in a Leica Store. I have been using Leica rangefinder cameras for decades and really want them to succeed with a great digital M. I was quite eager for a digital model so ordered the M8 as soon as it was possible to do so, i.e., I was an early adopter. However the M8 was a bit of a disappointment for me especially when compared to my DSLRs. Maybe the M10 is finally "The One." However, I am not interested in being another early adopter (probably too late at this point), i.e., being a beta tester, at MY expense. Therefore I am following this thread, others here on LUF, and other websites to see results of current beta testers and other reports of potential glitches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 30, 2017 Share #80 Posted January 30, 2017 OK, I'm in the minority here, perhaps, but I don't mind being a beta tester. First, if we waited until 100 engineers and programmers really perfected a new camera, it would take forever, the company would lose money, and they STILL wouldn't get everything done to the satisfaction of 10s of thousands of us. Second, these are lovely and complicated machines, and figuring out how they really work, thinking about how they might work better, is a source of pleasure. I just wish we could engage in a constructive discussion without having it taken as dismissive, critical, or leading to a hostile Internet perception of the products. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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