IkarusJohn Posted January 16, 2017 Share #81 Posted January 16, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sounds like you agree with me. All my post stated is that i personally AM ok with Leica's decisions. Read my post. Yes, I did read your post (it was very short), and yes I do agree with you. The rest of my comments were in response to the wider discussion, not to your post specifically - you didn't mention any of those other things. When the SL was released, PeterH decided that the SL wasn't for him (primarily size and weight at the time, but other factors didn't agree with him either) and he came to the conclusion that the next M would be a traditionalist or purist camera - "limited" was the word I used. Many, myself included, said that it would be very unlikely that Leica would remove features from the existing M(240) and there would always be a flagship M with the best of everything. What we see of the M10 would suggest that Peter may have been right. All this assumes, though, that people need to upgrade from their existing M(240) cameras, which they apparently like. That seems a bit irrational to me - many here still use the M8 and happily so. I would be happy using my M9 if I hadn't lost confidence in Leica over the whole sensor corrosion thing ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here "Leica M10 - Expect Simplicity" (overgaard.dk). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ianman Posted January 16, 2017 Share #82 Posted January 16, 2017 Let's face it, many or most people will be frustrated, let down, angry, etc. I feel lucky and must be in the minority because whatever Leica announce this week, I will be happy. If it's worth an "upgrade" from the M9 and not a feature bloated brick, then I'll be happy and may have a bit less in the bank. If it is a feature bloated brick, then I'll be happy because I still have my fantastic M9 and have a bit more in the bank 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 16, 2017 Share #83 Posted January 16, 2017 The reason I'm gnashing my teeth (!) is because though my M is a very good camera there are areas that I'd like to see improved, areas in which technological progress has made improvement perfectly possible. If Leica choose to ignore progress (I doubt they will, but many seem to be encouraging them to do so) then Ivshall feel very frustrated and, indeed, let down. That my M will still make the same photos as it did a few days previously is no reason for me to feel good about a missed opportunity. Perhaps, but if the M10 rumours are true, why would it not address the areas you would like to see improved? We all need to accept that Leica cannot address everyone's wishlist, and there is no point in making a silk purse out of a sow's ear (if you'll pardon the expression) - if we start from the position that the M is an optical rangefinder (parking my arguments for an EVF based variant), what's wrong with the M10? New sensor, new processor, better EVF, slimmer. What doesn't it have that you would want? I'm sorry if I'm missing your despondency ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianman Posted January 16, 2017 Share #84 Posted January 16, 2017 I would be happy using my M9 if I hadn't lost confidence in Leica over the whole sensor corrosion thing ... I felt exactly the same... until I got mine back with the new sensor, which to me seems even better than the old one. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 16, 2017 Share #85 Posted January 16, 2017 I felt exactly the same... until I got mine back with the new sensor, which to me seems even better than the old one. At that stage, I'd succumbed to the M60 so I used the trade to buy an M-A instead. To be honest, I'm using the SL more than I thought ... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 16, 2017 Share #86 Posted January 16, 2017 Perhaps, but if the M10 rumours are true, why would it not address the areas you would like to see improved? We all need to accept that Leica cannot address everyone's wishlist, and there is no point in making a silk purse out of a sow's ear (if you'll pardon the expression) - if we start from the position that the M is an optical rangefinder (parking my arguments for an EVF based variant), what's wrong with the M10? New sensor, new processor, better EVF, slimmer. What doesn't it have that you would want? I'm sorry if I'm missing your despondency ... Apologies, I haven't time at this minute to answer in detail but I'd like a better sensor than the SL's and a better EVF solution that would, presumably, make the deletion of video a perverse decision. And yes, I'd like improved focus assistance because even after 30 years of getting pretty good with a rangefinder and knowing it's considerable strengths, I've also Learened it's limitations that I do believe could be overcome. Perhaps they will be. I'm still reserving judgement. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted January 16, 2017 Share #87 Posted January 16, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I find it difficult to believe Leica see a comparatively modest upgrade to a simplified rangefinder based camera is going to be a huge seller and/or bring new customers to the table. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 16, 2017 Share #88 Posted January 16, 2017 Apologies, I haven't time at this minute to answer in detail but I'd like a better sensor than the SL's and a better EVF solution that would, presumably, make the deletion of video a perverse decision. And yes, I'd like improved focus assistance because even after 30 years of getting pretty good with a rangefinder and knowing it's considerable strengths, I've also Learened it's limitations that I do believe could be overcome. Perhaps they will be. I'm still reserving judgement. That's okay, Peter - thanks for responding. We are discussing this conceptually, it has to be said; and much of the speculation is to try to understand how the Leica gamut fits together. In that respect, I don't really understand why the M sensor and EVF need to be better than the SL. The SL sensor is new, and works exceptionally well with most M lenses. I have no doubt that the M10 will be better with M lenses than the SL sensor - why wouldn't it be? The EVF apparently won't, but it's an add-on so I doubt this will matter much. Provided the refresh rate is good and the blackout similar to the SL, I'm sure it will be more than adequate. I did read somewhere that the viewfinder has been upgraded (how and to what, who knows) - focus assist? I can't imagine what that will look like. I won't be investing in another camera with a fixed focus/metering patch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 16, 2017 Share #89 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) I find it difficult to believe Leica see a comparatively modest upgrade to a simplified rangefinder based camera is going to be a huge seller and/or bring new customers to the table. You underestimate the attraction and desirability of simplicity. . Edited January 16, 2017 by pico 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffry Abt Posted January 16, 2017 Share #90 Posted January 16, 2017 ... we have fantastic choices. The absolute truth. The M, the SL, the Q all superlative cameras! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 16, 2017 Share #91 Posted January 16, 2017 The absolute truth. The M, the SL, the Q all superlative cameras! I also really liked the T. I just couldn't get excited about APS-C format and the blackout on the EVF killed it for me. I hope like hell that it performs better on the M10 ... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted January 16, 2017 Share #92 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) While I don't agree with this comment at all, I don't either feel that Apple products are life enhancing... Sure when is the last time you saw a woman or a non white guy leading a product launch, they would only do that under pressure or as a PR stunt........ sure they finally started hiring others but they are not in positions of power to make decisions. Just look at the board of directors over the last two decades. Edited January 16, 2017 by brackets Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverover Posted January 16, 2017 Share #93 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) I find it difficult to believe Leica see a comparatively modest upgrade to a simplified rangefinder based camera is going to be a huge seller and/or bring new customers to the table. ...you may want to take a look at the T and the "upgraded" TL. My feeling is that Leica Does feel small changes are worthwhile and effective for them as a company and to their products, otherwise they would likely not embark on those kinds of exercises. I would bet that some of it has to do with the way companies see how marketing works today. Nike can't make the same shoe twice. They change them for the sake of continually introducing "new" models, somehow, this is how products are marketed to the great masses today. I am NOT saying i agree with this, but it seems to me that this is how it's done today and it likely has more to do with keeping products and a companies image alive to the marketplace, again, i am NOT saying i agree with this philosophy, i am merely observing. Edited January 16, 2017 by roverover 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 16, 2017 Share #94 Posted January 16, 2017 Sure when is the last time you saw a woman or a non white guy leading a product launch, they would only do that under pressure or as a PR stunt........ sure they finally started hiring others but they are not in positions of power to make decisions. Just look at the board of directors over the last two decades. So perhaps look to Asian Indians for innovation. Heads-up. It's coming and unless Apple buys them in order to stifle them, we have hope. This is a turning point for the Apple dominance. I have sold all my Apple stock and am well. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted January 16, 2017 Share #95 Posted January 16, 2017 You underestimate the attraction and desirability of simplicity. . That's a very strange assumption considering my favourite camera is my M9. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted January 16, 2017 Share #96 Posted January 16, 2017 ...you may want to take a look at the T and the "upgraded" TL... I need full frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 16, 2017 Share #97 Posted January 16, 2017 I love the way the SL works but now I am over 70, it does seem to get that little bit heavier every day. I suspect the M10 will not be the camera for me but I hope in due course an updated and improved M240 will emerge, and that might well be. I am happy to wait as other than the inadequate EVF on the M240, it is pretty good. Wilson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblutter Posted January 16, 2017 Share #98 Posted January 16, 2017 Looking forward to specs & sample comparison DNG's. Hope there's a leap in IQ at high ISO's and expanded DR throughout the range. Otherwise, am still satisfied with 240. Weight / size not my issue - or Wifi. That said, will most likely order one when available to get in line. Am thinking silver chrome this time... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 16, 2017 Share #99 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) That's a very strange assumption considering my favourite camera is my M9. The M9 is, so far, my favorite digital Leica as well. In fact I use two of them, and I'm likely to purchase one more. . Edited January 16, 2017 by pico 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverover Posted January 16, 2017 Share #100 Posted January 16, 2017 I need full frame. ...You may have missed the entire point, it's about the fact that companies DO introduce models that aren't always significantly upgraded, not about the specific features of the T. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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