xiaubauu2009 Posted December 1, 2016 Share #21 Posted December 1, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Do you really think "run circle around" is appropriate when describing what, in reality is a minor difference in optical quality. The Otus lenses are spectacular, for sure, but I'm a bit over seeing small and often un-noticable differences described as huge. The S lenses are also sensational and they get to play with a sensor that has more DR, bit depth and better tonal transitions. It's the same when people tell me the Sony sensor "smashes" the SL sensor when there's about a third of a stop difference in DR. Overblown. I don't own either but I have directly compared the Otus 85mm and the S 100mm Summicron. I have yet to see a shot where I would not choose the S. More to do with the sensor size and DR than anything else. The Otus is great but even the D810 or A7R2 sensor doesn't do what the S sensor can, in the right circumstances. And with either combination it's not the gear that'll be the determining issue on image quality. Gordon Gordon, I agree that I am a bit excessive. But I owned all the Otus series (28,55,85) and S 35,70,100cron and to be honest, the difference is quite significant, especially take into consideration of the sensor. Otus is a lens capable to do any focus distance and achieve pretty excellent IQ, albeit very sterile and even resolve up to the 100mp digital back (tried, but doesn't cover the full sensor, so gave up) while I find 100cron is good for portrait distance around 2~3m focus distance (still not as sharp and often OOF, maybe due to my technique), it is not that good doing landscape focus at infinity etc... I mean, the size of Otus and the image circle it required to project gives it a big big advantage over the S lens (I mean not size is smaller, but it's bigger so the optics are larger and bigger sweet spot etc). it's Apple and orange, and the apple just taste better, that's all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 1, 2016 Posted December 1, 2016 Hi xiaubauu2009, Take a look here Otus vs Leica?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Paul J Posted December 1, 2016 Share #22 Posted December 1, 2016 Gordon, I agree that I am a bit excessive. But I owned all the Otus series (28,55,85) and S 35,70,100cron and to be honest, the difference is quite significant, especially take into consideration of the sensor. Otus is a lens capable to do any focus distance and achieve pretty excellent IQ, albeit very sterile and even resolve up to the 100mp digital back (tried, but doesn't cover the full sensor, so gave up) while I find 100cron is good for portrait distance around 2~3m focus distance (still not as sharp and often OOF, maybe due to my technique), it is not that good doing landscape focus at infinity etc... I mean, the size of Otus and the image circle it required to project gives it a big big advantage over the S lens (I mean not size is smaller, but it's bigger so the optics are larger and bigger sweet spot etc). it's Apple and orange, and the apple just taste better, that's all. Hi xiaubauu2009, I've not been able to thoroughly test the Otus lenses against medium format, namely the Leica S. Did you do any actual comparisons? I would be really interested to see or hear about it as I am in the middle of a potential major system change,. My medium format (Blad/Phase) is getting old and in need of change and the time to do so is closing in. I love the Leica S rendering, it wins over any other system I have had or tried but, well, it just seems like an unsafe and unwise investment. Reliability issues aside, Leica has different ideas about resolution than my needs require. I've been using the IQ100 a little lately and, well it's like nothing else and totally on another level but I've been quite surprised by the Canon 5D quality and wonder if the future is there, with their talk of a 250MP sensor in the future and perhaps with Otus lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted December 1, 2016 Share #23 Posted December 1, 2016 I have both the otus 55 and 3 S lenses 30, 70, 120. If I compare the Otus lens on my D810 to say the S120 on the S007 your correct Peter theres no comparison, the S combination wins especially as the ISO performance is way better than the D810. I also feel the S camera with the S lens feels more imbalance compared to the D810 with the Otus. I took my Otus lens on a naked shoot and it was not that easy to nail the model with that combo, with the S in my hand I nailed her every time ..............not sure if that makes cence? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted December 1, 2016 Share #24 Posted December 1, 2016 "nailed her' could have multiple meanings ;-) john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.y Posted December 1, 2016 Share #25 Posted December 1, 2016 Neil doesn't need further encouragement on his flirtations with language. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted December 1, 2016 Share #26 Posted December 1, 2016 imbalance? Or in balance? Talking about language: this metaphor: running in circles around.... very strange to express lens-quality in terms of a top sports performance to reach a goal with a certain speed in a linear setting (from a. to b.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted December 1, 2016 Share #27 Posted December 1, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Gordon, I agree that I am a bit excessive. But I owned all the Otus series (28,55,85) and S 35,70,100cron and to be honest, the difference is quite significant, especially take into consideration of the sensor. Otus is a lens capable to do any focus distance and achieve pretty excellent IQ, albeit very sterile and even resolve up to the 100mp digital back (tried, but doesn't cover the full sensor, so gave up) while I find 100cron is good for portrait distance around 2~3m focus distance (still not as sharp and often OOF, maybe due to my technique), it is not that good doing landscape focus at infinity etc... I mean, the size of Otus and the image circle it required to project gives it a big big advantage over the S lens (I mean not size is smaller, but it's bigger so the optics are larger and bigger sweet spot etc). it's Apple and orange, and the apple just taste better, that's all. I would isolate focus error when we talk about lens optical performance. I did the infinity test for all my lens. For S lens and S006, I manually set optimized focusing by using trial and error. 100cron is actually perform better at infinity optically compare to close distance which should not be a surprise. However, as I mentioned, OTUS 55 did edge out S glass at infinity, especially corner at wide aperture. I would not worry about glass performance at this caliber. It will not be a decision factor to choose either system. It really depend on which system can inspire you more. For most cases, I enjoy shooting S for its ergonomics, large bight VF, and beautiful rendering and color out of S006 sensor. sometimes, I do miss the responsiveness (operation speed and less shutter delay)of D810, more than 2 min long exposure and no mandatory NR as well as E-shutter for landscape. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted December 1, 2016 Share #28 Posted December 1, 2016 Gordon, I agree that I am a bit excessive. But I owned all the Otus series (28,55,85) and S 35,70,100cron and to be honest, the difference is quite significant, especially take into consideration of the sensor. Otus is a lens capable to do any focus distance and achieve pretty excellent IQ, albeit very sterile and even resolve up to the 100mp digital back (tried, but doesn't cover the full sensor, so gave up) while I find 100cron is good for portrait distance around 2~3m focus distance (still not as sharp and often OOF, maybe due to my technique), it is not that good doing landscape focus at infinity etc... I mean, the size of Otus and the image circle it required to project gives it a big big advantage over the S lens (I mean not size is smaller, but it's bigger so the optics are larger and bigger sweet spot etc). it's Apple and orange, and the apple just taste better, that's all. I don't own the 100 cron, and I have no doubt your findings are accurate. As I said I have done some trials on the 100 but only as a portrait lens. I do have the 35, 70 and 120 macro. The 120 is fabulous at any distance (hence my hesitation in buying a 100mm just for half a stop). As a landscape lens maybe it's a better comparison to the Otus. Interesting that you should say the Otus is sterile. I like a lens with some character and that quality ( or lack of )could turn on my personal bias and colour my opinion. I've got to say that at close distances I was really pleased with the 100mm. Even at 3200 ISO... S007, ISO 3200 w' 100mm @f2 L1001349-Edit.jpg by Gordon Cahill, on Flickr Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted December 1, 2016 Share #29 Posted December 1, 2016 For me, the way the picture looks is the most important thing, rendering and lens characteristics. This is, however, overridden by necessity. I need resolution because of, often, large output size. My ideal camera does not exist and unless there is some sort of serious shift I'm not going to get what I want. What I see as a working combination for me would be Phase One IQ100, on a Hasselblad H6x or H5x with True Focus, with Leica S lenses and a new 65mm Summilux-S. Unachievable, of corse. 80MP or greater S would possibly be the silver bullet for me. Either that or I'm considering, like many I know right now, to return to film and buy a Drum Scanner and truly get the look I'm after, of corse at great expense of resource and time and probably sanity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVB Posted December 1, 2016 Share #30 Posted December 1, 2016 For me, the way the picture looks is the most important thing, rendering and lens characteristics. This is, however, overridden by necessity. I need resolution because of, often, large output size. My ideal camera does not exist and unless there is some sort of serious shift I'm not going to get what I want. What I see as a working combination for me would be Phase One IQ100, on a Hasselblad H6x or H5x with True Focus, with Leica S lenses and a new 65mm Summilux-S. Unachievable, of corse. 80MP or greater S would possibly be the silver bullet for me. Either that or I'm considering, like many I know right now, to return to film and buy a Drum Scanner and truly get the look I'm after, of corse at great expense of resource and time and probably sanity. I really looking forward to seeking how the S lenses work on a sensor with smaller pixel pitch, D810 is about 4.88 microns, quite a bit smaller then the 6microns of the S sensors. 80mp would be sun 4micron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted December 2, 2016 Share #31 Posted December 2, 2016 I would isolate focus error when we talk about lens optical performance. I did the infinity test for all my lens. For S lens and S006, I manually set optimized focusing by using trial and error. 100cron is actually perform better at infinity optically compare to close distance which should not be a surprise. However, as I mentioned, OTUS 55 did edge out S glass at infinity, especially corner at wide aperture. I would not worry about glass performance at this caliber. It will not be a decision factor to choose either system. It really depend on which system can inspire you more. For most cases, I enjoy shooting S for its ergonomics, large bight VF, and beautiful rendering and color out of S006 sensor. sometimes, I do miss the responsiveness (operation speed and less shutter delay)of D810, more than 2 min long exposure and no mandatory NR as well as E-shutter for landscape. You are right. I mean it's like nick picking really... I am only put off by S's unreliability, and I think that's an enough reason not to move into it... no matter how good the glass are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted December 2, 2016 Share #32 Posted December 2, 2016 Hi xiaubauu2009, I've not been able to thoroughly test the Otus lenses against medium format, namely the Leica S. Did you do any actual comparisons? I would be really interested to see or hear about it as I am in the middle of a potential major system change,. My medium format (Blad/Phase) is getting old and in need of change and the time to do so is closing in. I love the Leica S rendering, it wins over any other system I have had or tried but, well, it just seems like an unsafe and unwise investment. Reliability issues aside, Leica has different ideas about resolution than my needs require. I've been using the IQ100 a little lately and, well it's like nothing else and totally on another level but I've been quite surprised by the Canon 5D quality and wonder if the future is there, with their talk of a 250MP sensor in the future and perhaps with Otus lenses. I will find whether I got the files of Otus 28, 55, and 85 on a 50mp digital back... but not sure I still have them. The 28 and 55 clearly doesn't cover the 44x33 mm sensor. but the middle is very sharp and absence of any CA, which is quite amazing, particularly the 28mm I didn't have a straight comparison of the Leica S files of the same scene, but shooting some cityscape photos, I can see it has good IQ, but the CA starts to creep out on the edge under some difficult circumstances. But like most forum has said, these 2 are both excellent performer, just different requirement that's all. But if only talking just the lens per say, then I will say Otus is a better engineer/designed lens set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted December 2, 2016 Share #33 Posted December 2, 2016 The 70mm is the only S lens that I have often seen CA with, surprisingly easy to provoke :-( john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted December 2, 2016 Share #34 Posted December 2, 2016 The 70mm is the only S lens that I have often seen CA with, surprisingly easy to provoke :-( john John I see you like to use this acronym CA all the time..........what is it, do I need it and if so where can you get it??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted December 2, 2016 Share #35 Posted December 2, 2016 As I have said before, why do you buy so much expensive kit without knowing the basics? What makes you choose it, other than cost/it looks good, over other kit? https://photographylife.com/what-is-chromatic-aberration john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted December 2, 2016 Share #36 Posted December 2, 2016 As I have said before, why do you buy so much expensive kit without knowing the basics? What makes you choose it, other than cost/it looks good, over other kit? https://photographylife.com/what-is-chromatic-aberration john Why do you always get your nickers in a twist whenever I post anything on here. Yes I can google CA or PSM if I want, but I prefer to ask on here as I like the banter that goes with it. Please just add me to your ignore list so that both of us can move on .............Thank you. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted December 2, 2016 Share #37 Posted December 2, 2016 Because you have some of the best/most expensive equipment going but know neither technical nor historic (who is HCB?) information about photography - perhaps it just envy ;-) john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVB Posted December 2, 2016 Share #38 Posted December 2, 2016 The 70mm is the only S lens that I have often seen CA with, surprisingly easy to provoke :-( john Easy to fix in post!! Although I think Leica should make an APO lens in the same focal length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 2, 2016 Share #39 Posted December 2, 2016 Because you have some of the best/most expensive equipment going but know neither technical nor historic (who is HCB?) information about photography - perhaps it just envy ;-) john Interesting question - do you have to have a full knowledge of the technical stuff or photographic history in order to take good photos? I agree it helps, but I doubt it's necessary. (And Neil is a more than capable photographer.) I must declare an interest: I have little knowledge of (or interest in) chromatic aberration and MTF curves, and my knowledge of photographic history is seriously limited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted December 2, 2016 Share #40 Posted December 2, 2016 Interesting question - do you have to have a full knowledge of the technical stuff or photographic history in order to take good photos? I agree it helps, but I doubt it's necessary. (And Neil is a more than capable photographer.) I must declare an interest: I have little knowledge of (or interest in) chromatic aberration and MTF curves, and my knowledge of photographic history is seriously limited. Paul exactly that. I don't give a flying f@ck who HSBC is (I thought it was a bank). I just want to take pictures, print them and sell'um. I fully understand that there are many on this forum that want to know all the nuts and bolts and all the technical stuff and that's great (especially for me) as they are the ones that help me out...........Thanks guys But it doesn't meant to say that we all have to. I have refered to my lenses as Sumerlucks and somethimes get confused between EVF and IVF but it doesn't matter. When most punters ask me about my pictures they too don't give a flying xxx about what I used to take it or if I had to remove some CVF or the likes, they like the picture or they don't. I'm currently in the market for a SL and Noctilux..................I'm sure I will get an ear bashing about that, but that's okay "Bring it on" I'm actually selling my Otus 55mm as I cant see myself using it again now that I am shooting with my S007 Later Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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