LocalHero1953 Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2501 Posted January 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) In other words... it needs to work in exactly the same way as it does on the Leica SL... I presume when the SL is used with M lenses, it works as expected? No - there is no automatic triggering of focus magnification in the SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Hi LocalHero1953, Take a look here Leica M 10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2502 Posted January 23, 2017 If it isn't a priority, why bother designing it into the M system at all? Clearly, it is a priority. Leica did indeed promise the "best of both worlds" in 2013 but fact is the M240's and now M10's EVF modes are still inferior to that of more modest mirrorless cameras. As far as firmware updates are concerned, it is interesting to notice that blackout times can be reduced or zeroed in modern cameras simply by disabling the auto-review feature. According to Sean Reid, the M10 is unable to do that. Without raining on RF lovers' parade, it would be interesting to know why IMHO . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2503 Posted January 23, 2017 A key feature of the M10 camera (no one has paid too much attention to it) is the wifi connectivity. You can get small JPGs from the camera and send it to Faccebook or Whatsapp to a friend during a trip. But the really interesting point is that you can control the camera from the smartphone, so a new screenless model based on the new M10 will be far more interesting than the current M-D model. You don't need to reduce the operative system of the camera for a new M-D model, because you can control it from the phone. You don't need a screen in the camera, if you can have it in your pocket for occasional parameter's adjustment (formatting card, or change in WB, etc.). Now you have all relevant parameters controlled by physical wheels or buttons, so you only need the screen sporadically. A new M10 without screen would be simple, a bit thinner and lighter, more robust (not fragile parts at the back)... This is the camera I am waiting for... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2504 Posted January 23, 2017 I understand what you are saying... but don't think of Leica M when thinking of an M-EVF, and worrying about blackout and so on...think of it working precisely the same way as an SL when its being used with M lenses. The only difference should be the body shape and control layout... Shape and size... size is the key factor here... You can make a smaller SL body but it would be against the huge SL lenses... You can make a M-EVF body as small as possible because it does not play against the M lenses, it would reinforce the global value of the system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2505 Posted January 23, 2017 Shape and size... size is the key factor here... You can make a smaller SL body but it would be against the huge SL lenses... You can make a M-EVF body as small as possible because it does not play against the M lenses, it would reinforce the global value of the system. And, fantasizing here, the phone could enable video through its microphone, speaker and screen... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Q Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2506 Posted January 23, 2017 We are no longer discussing the M10... the subject has moved on. And the only reason some of us are repeating ourselves is to correct the incorrect or inaccurate assumptions that people are making who have clearly not been following the conversation particularly closely and are only now joining in. Those of us who are clear in what we have been discussing as a potential future option are not, and never have, seen an EVF M option as a replacement for the current OVF M... but as an additional option to the M range of camera bodies... If people 'got' that point alone, there would be close to 90% less repetition OK cool, I've gone back a few pages and it seems the discussion is about a future hybrid VF, a future updated accessory EVF, and the Fuji X-Pro 2. I'd imagine it would be beneficial to discuss these matters in a "Things I want in a M11" or "Things I want in the next accessory EVF" or "How Leica can improve on the X-Pro 2 hybrid VF" thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2507 Posted January 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) or just continue here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holgerf Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2508 Posted January 23, 2017 … According to Sean Reid, the M10 is unable to do that. … Die automatische Wiedergabe kann – wie bei der M (240) auch auf AUS gestellt werden. Genau dann kommt es zu der Dunkelpause von einer knappen Sekunde. Das ist sehr schade, da es den klassischen „Nachschuss“ unmöglich macht. Dies kann die X-Pro2 tatsächlich besser, die in diesem Punkt mit einer DSLR vergleichbar ist. Best Holger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Q Posted January 23, 2017 Share #2509 Posted January 23, 2017 or just continue here It's just confusing as hell when there's 3 different discussions going on about the EVF in one thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2510 Posted January 24, 2017 It's still a factor for those of us who have almost moved to the SL but want something handier for unobtrusive shooting with exotic lenses that require focus with peaking or magnification. ... Since buying the SL, I never used anything but M lenses on the M-P, changed to using the M-D. I use the 'exotic' lenses on the SL body, which is much better suited to them. The M body isn't any more handy than the SL for use with 'exotic' lenses ... It's less handy because of the add-on viewfinder. I find it pretty awkward to use with adapted lenses and only use it that way for copywork and macro photography. No it wouldn't... without the mechanical/optical rangefinder there is a massive amount of space that can be used, far more than is necessary... which is why I have always thought of two M bodies... an EVF M and an OVF M... as I have said before, some customers would by one, some the other and some, like me, would buy both. By your own statement, it would require a major redesign and a different body: you've just said that you can't fit both RF and EVF into the M body at the same time ... that's pretty much what I said. I doubt that your "M pair" will ever happen. Maybe if they actually are building the "Q L-mount" camera, that will achieve what you want, with an adapter to fit the M lenses. Whether it will perform at the same level as the SL does is another question mark; the Q is very good, but doesn't have the electronics for as good an EVF or the high speed IO required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2511 Posted January 24, 2017 Since buying the SL, I never used anything but M lenses on the M-P, changed to using the M-D. I use the 'exotic' lenses on the SL body, which is much better suited to them. The M body isn't any more handy than the SL for use with 'exotic' lenses ... It's less handy because of the add-on viewfinder. I find it pretty awkward to use with adapted lenses and only use it that way for copywork and macro photography. By your own statement, it would require a major redesign and a different body: you've just said that you can't fit both RF and EVF into the M body at the same time ... that's pretty much what I said. I doubt that your "M pair" will ever happen. Maybe if they actually are building the "Q L-mount" camera, that will achieve what you want, with an adapter to fit the M lenses. Whether it will perform at the same level as the SL does is another question mark; the Q is very good, but doesn't have the electronics for as good an EVF or the high speed IO required. You know that I have never suggested fitting an OVF and an EVF in the same body... so to say 'that's pretty much what I said' followed by a rolling eyes emoticon is pretty offensive and disingenuous. That first paragraph was just superfluous- apart from as an intended dig at those of us who have explained pretty clearly what we would like to see in the future. As far as the second paragraph is concerned... it's clear that your lack of comprehension of what we were actually suggesting extends even further. Worse, to go your way, puts the M back into even more of a niche than it already is. The M240 actually gave hope that Leica were interested in developing the M into something that could gain new customers and embrace a very forward looking future. Seems very few Leica users actually want that. And that is a great pity. I want a small, beautifully made camera to use with my M lenses that uses leading edge technology to make the experience simple, clean and fast. If I wanted big, fast autofocus lenses, and a camera that worked brilliantly with them, I would have bought an SL. They are not the same camera and they will appeal to different customers/photographers. If the M carries on in this trajectory, I will probably end up with a Q with a zoom and have a system far less capable quality wise, with auto everything.. which is not what I wanted. I may just as well have stayed with my Nikon DSLR's... The M10 is perfect for many M users. There is room for an advanced technology version of the M too... You may not want it... but there are many that do... in fact, there is quite a lot of us on this forum... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2512 Posted January 24, 2017 Sounds like a small hamburger with the lot, it will not happen. A complete redesigned body with rangefinder/EVF ln camera would be quite possible but my take is the lenses would need to be tailor made in order to fully support the camera........the present m lenses would become legacy lenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distagon Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2513 Posted January 24, 2017 I doubt that your "M pair" will ever happen. Maybe if they actually are building the "Q L-mount" camera, that will achieve what you want, with an adapter to fit the M lenses. Whether it will perform at the same level as the SL does is another question mark; the Q is very good, but doesn't have the electronics for as good an EVF or the high speed IO required. Sounds like a small hamburger with the lot, it will not happen. A complete redesigned body with rangefinder/EVF ln camera would be quite possible but my take is the lenses would need to be tailor made in order to fully support the camera........the present m lenses would become legacy lenses It does make one wonder about the way forward for small, high quality Leica lenses.If the "Q L-mount" is a thing - and it does make sense technically - will delivering high quality, fast glass in a small & light form factor remain a priority? Would there be a redesign effort to "ROM-ify" M lens designs in the new L-mount, preserving their small size? After all, Leica have shown that size is still given high priority in the M mount. Will it be given similar emphasis in L? Certainly, SL lenses have not had small size as an important design constraint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2514 Posted January 24, 2017 a spanner On my X-E2 through the EVF I can judge/see exposure a lot better than on with a OVF with the added bonus of applying adjustments in real time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2515 Posted January 24, 2017 [...] On my X-E2 through the EVF I can judge/see exposure a lot better than on with a OVF with the added bonus of applying adjustments in real time. Same with all modern EVFs i guess, at least with mines. Hard to believe that this is impossible with a modern Visoflex. This is the only way to get auto-magnification which is impossible with M lenses on current mirrorless cameras like our X-E2, the SL, the A7 and so on. At least if Leica prefers the L mount for a future mirrorless camera. Pity one has to wait for the M11 or the cows to come home but Leica is Leica... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest )-( Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2516 Posted January 24, 2017 On that general topic, is anyone using R lenses on their M10 as yet? How is it, especially compared with M240? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rawcs Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2517 Posted January 24, 2017 I had a demo of the M10 yesterday as I'm in the market for a new camera. I was also considering the X-Pro2 or X-T2 as I have been impressed with the Jpeg simulations from my X-100T, particularly being able to view in b&w using the EVF of the camera; it made sense shooting Raw and Jpeg-Fine just for this ability. After the demo I'm pleased that Leica didn't add an EVF to the M10. It works perfectly as it is and gives me all that I have been asking for a number of years i.e. a digital M rangefinder camera the same size as a film M. I've placed my order for the camera, but when shooting b&w I may well use Raw and Jpeg-Fine as found it very easy to quickly review the scene on the LCD in b&w using Live View. It was even possible to focus using the LCD screen using focus-peeking and then quickly switch back to OVF for final focussing / framing if required. Very fluid, very liberating. I've used the OVF on the T and found it a pain to use with a camera bag, requiring it to be removed each time the camera was put in the bag, although in use it was fine, much better than the X100T. That said, for my photography, I probably would never need to use it and if I did, it would be a rare event, so the attachable EVF is the best compromise for me, especially as I can now see the 28mm framelines in the finder! At last, thank you Leica. The camera is not light for its size but is wonderful to hand-hold; very steady in the hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 24, 2017 Share #2518 Posted January 24, 2017 You know that I have never suggested fitting an OVF and an EVF in the same body... so to say 'that's pretty much what I said' followed by a rolling eyes emoticon is pretty offensive and disingenuous. That first paragraph was just superfluous- apart from as an intended dig at those of us who have explained pretty clearly what we would like to see in the future. As far as the second paragraph is concerned... it's clear that your lack of comprehension of what we were actually suggesting extends even further. Worse, to go your way, puts the M back into even more of a niche than it already is. The M240 actually gave hope that Leica were interested in developing the M into something that could gain new customers and embrace a very forward looking future. Seems very few Leica users actually want that. And that is a great pity. I want a small, beautifully made camera to use with my M lenses that uses leading edge technology to make the experience simple, clean and fast. If I wanted big, fast autofocus lenses, and a camera that worked brilliantly with them, I would have bought an SL. They are not the same camera and they will appeal to different customers/photographers. If the M carries on in this trajectory, I will probably end up with a Q with a zoom and have a system far less capable quality wise, with auto everything.. which is not what I wanted. I may just as well have stayed with my Nikon DSLR's... The M10 is perfect for many M users. There is room for an advanced technology version of the M too... You may not want it... but there are many that do... in fact, there is quite a lot of us on this forum... (bolded) Well, Bill, I think you're getting just a hair too personal and insulting to read or participate in discussion with anymore. I don't know that, I don't know you, and I no longer care what you want since you want to start saying things about me that are both untrue and unwarranted. I have owned and used Leica M cameras for most of the past fifty years because the camera that Leica has been making, in all its various revisions, suited me well. I don't need to imagine how to change it to make it what I want ... It already is that. And that design genius is what I expect Leica to continue to pursue. I don't really want a different camera that uses M lenses, which seems to be what you want. The M10 is simply the latest iteration in the continuing story of the Leica M to me, and a very nice one ... focusing in more on what I want in an M and discarding some things better done in other Leica cameras. I bought the SL because I wanted what it provides as well: an excellent, new, state of the art camera with Leica's genius in lens performance and image quality. And it, too, is that. It is also a superb modern platform for my Leica R lenses—and my Leica M lenses, if I choose to use them on it. I could care less about "developing the M into something that could gain new customers and embrace a very forward looking future" ... That's Leica's business, not mine. I want Leica to be successful and profitable, and I trust that they know a lot more about what it takes to be successful and profitable, gain new customers, etc, in the camera equipment manufacturing business than I ever will. Whatever your desires, I hope that some day someone makes close enough to what you want so that you can just be happy. I'm happy already and I'm enjoying all the buzz and discussion of this latest and greatest M. Sayonara! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 25, 2017 Share #2519 Posted January 25, 2017 Thanks otto. I have played with the M262 right next to an M240 previously, and while I can hear a difference in the volume of the sound, I felt that the difference wasn't very big, I could live with the M240 in terms of the shutter. So in that case I assume that the M10 won't be too far off from either the M262 or the M240, maybe somewhere in between. I don't have an M10 to record, but here are the M-D 262, M-P 240, M4-2, and SL shutter sounds. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFe00UU2hH3AxhBFp_zog_zwgocztsPyj Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted January 25, 2017 Share #2520 Posted January 25, 2017 Ramarren: I think if you go back to the original posts, you will find you misrepresented what I had said and then used a 'rolling eyes' emoticon to communicate your distain for not only my opinion, but the opinions of others on this board with whom I share that view and who have expressed their own thoughts and desires for future M cameras. I merely picked you up on it... and now YOU want to complain to ME about saying things that are untrue or unwarranted? Seriously? To just be clear. I am very happy with my current M. I welcome the new M10 and would buy one, maybe still will if/when the M10-P is released. And if Leica would ever make an M bodied EVF camera that I can use with my M lenses with, I would buy that too, as a second body. So would many others from what has been written and I would suggest many new customers would be interested too... So what is so controversial in that? Or maybe you just didn't understand me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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