New stuff for Leica S at Photokinia

[RVB]

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Thanks for sharing this, Rob. I hadn't been to Mr. Chambers' site in over a year ...

 

How typical of him to make space for such an 'open letter'. He likes to stir the pot and create FUD, especially with all things Leica, look at his comment.

 

The S system certainly is not dead, nor is the M, for that matter.

 

Clickbait, I call it.

 

Pater ,if I was a gambling man I'd bet the S system is far from dead, I expect to see a new model when Leica find a suitable sensor, as it stands cmosis don't have a higher res sensor and a deal with Sony doesn't look likely right now but who knows how it will pan out.

 

I'm happy with my 007 anyway and would still be happy to use the 006 with its great color.

[RVB]

Well, the good news is that the letter makes no mention of any issues with the writer's lenses, despite owning 8 of them.  His only beef is that there aren't enough new lenses.  

 

I wouldn't be surprised if S lens reliability and service issues had influence on Leica's decision to curtail new lens rollout.  Of course profit is the key, and nobody outside Leica knows how the S line has been selling, or at what return.....but certainly lower cost entrants, starting with the Pentax 645Z, followed by extensive Leica price cuts on earlier models, haven't helped.

 

It will be interesting to see how the product line develops...or not.

 

Jeff

 

For me the only lens missing is a WA T&S lens, some people would like to see the 350mm tele and maybe a wide angle macro but overall the lineup is very good.

 

The Pentax is great value for money but no leaf shutters and the glass is no match for S glass.

[John McMaster]

 

Got now from two independent sources that the metal replacement parts for the AF will be available as of October. 

 

Let's hope it is true. I will surely ask it again at the Photokina on Thursday.

 

I have written to my customer care contact at Wetzlar and my French contact but neither have confirmed that (or actually replied). I would wait for the replacement to be in place before I send out my 120/2.5....

 

john

[tom0511]

I assume the fact that Leica founds a new unit to serve professional products gives hope that they work on a better service.

On the other side I hope this doesnt lead that "non-professional" products will be supported with less efforts. 

[bab]

I assume the fact that Leica founds a new unit to serve professional products gives hope that they work on a better service.

On the other side I hope this doesnt lead that "non-professional" products will be supported with less efforts.

 

Photokina 2018 is just days away I'm holding out on any new gear purchases or maybe Leica didn't want to steal any thunder at Photokina so they will announce next week their up coming new products for top gear nuts!

 

Adobe collaboration was the big news!

[ZHNL]

The title is mis leading. There is no new stuff for S.

 

Nobody know what is professional service about. We don't need professional service, we need reliable tool. Leica own all its S customers a explanation. 

[Georges]

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I have written to my customer care contact at Wetzlar and my French contact but neither have confirmed that (or actually replied). I would wait for the replacement to be in place before I send out my 120/2.5....

 

john

 

My two sources were probably too optimistic. I could not get any confirmation at Photokina that the issue is solved. 

 

But, they take it very seriously, so they will eventually find a solution. 

[stephan_w]

 

Nobody know what is professional service about. We don't need professional service, we need reliable tool. Leica own all its S customers a explanation.

 

yes, I fully agree with that. As a user from day one of this system I can tell that the Leica "pro" service (yes, they had one) is a mess and I feel absolutely pissed off as a customer. Remember, how much the seven lenses I have plus a body are worth? Do I miss something or can we, as S-users, expect a "S" service too? The fact that we got only a firmwareupdate for the major event in Germany is a bad sign and I hope that they change the head of the S department soon.

 

BTW I also hope for a free upgrade of the AF for all lenses .........

[John McMaster]

The fact that we got only a firmwareupdate for the major event in Germany is a bad sign and I hope that they change the head of the S department soon.\

 

Well, as an S2-P owner I did not even get that :-(

 

john - eight S lenses

[xiaubauu2009]

Even after getting out of the S system for the second time (2x006 and 1x007 and about 6 lens), I am still pretty angry!

Angry at the fact that this could have been such a nice system but leaving a sour and bitter taste in my mouth everytime I took it out to shoot. I love the files it produce when it works, but everytime it doesn't it hurts me both in terms of opportunity and monetary. And now, the Sony sensor - Fuji GFX... with better resolution, better DR and I think also potentially better optics as their lens is design to resolve 100mp...

 

So is S relevant in the future? Yes, as relevant as the R....

[tom0511]

Even after getting out of the S system for the second time (2x006 and 1x007 and about 6 lens), I am still pretty angry!

Angry at the fact that this could have been such a nice system but leaving a sour and bitter taste in my mouth everytime I took it out to shoot. I love the files it produce when it works, but everytime it doesn't it hurts me both in terms of opportunity and monetary. And now, the Sony sensor - Fuji GFX... with better resolution, better DR and I think also potentially better optics as their lens is design to resolve 100mp...

 

So is S relevant in the future? Yes, as relevant as the R....

 

What do you use at the moment instead of the S - Hassy or Phase?  

[xiaubauu2009]

What do you use at the moment instead of the S - Hassy or Phase?

 

Sigma. Hahaha. The foveon sensor is really good. Even the lens is good. Albeit the wide angle is a bit weak. I used both Sigma as an walk around and Alpa PhaseOne as landscape/archi photos.

[dfarkas]

For those interested in the official statement in the future of the S-System from Stephan Schulz, global director of business unit professional for Leica:

 

Photokina 2016 – Interview with Stephan Schulz, Director of Leica’s Professional Business Unit

 

 

Short version: Of course, Leica is committed to the S System.

[dfarkas]

Even after getting out of the S system for the second time (2x006 and 1x007 and about 6 lens), I am still pretty angry!

Angry at the fact that this could have been such a nice system but leaving a sour and bitter taste in my mouth everytime I took it out to shoot. I love the files it produce when it works, but everytime it doesn't it hurts me both in terms of opportunity and monetary. And now, the Sony sensor - Fuji GFX... with better resolution, better DR and I think also potentially better optics as their lens is design to resolve 100mp...

 

So is S relevant in the future? Yes, as relevant as the R....

 

I'm sorry you had issues with your S-System. Clearly, Leica needs to address the lens AF issue, which they are well aware of.

 

As far as the Fuji goes.....

 

I doubt that the dynamic range will be superior. The S007 has a DR of 15.3 stops, the most of any still camera. 

 

The difference between 37.5 and 50 MP amounts to a 10-15% increase in linear resolution - not much. Top put this in perspective, on a print, you'd get 2.6 inches more on the long edge at 300 dpi. When Leica announced the S007 was coming to market without a bump in resolution, I wrote a detailed analysis: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)

 

The S lenses are some of the finest lenses that Leica has ever produced. They are all excellent across the board. During my review of the S2 before launch, I was having a discussion with Peter Karbe, head of optics at Leica, about the S lenses. He theorized the resolving power of the S lenses to be in the neighborhood of 200-300 lp/mm, with all S lenses easily achieving at least 50% contrast at 100 lp/mm, wide-open. Looking at the Fuji lens line-up, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of fast aperture glass. Most of the Leica S lenses are f/2.5 and 2.8, with the 24 and 180 coming in at f/3.5. 

 

Is the GFX interesting? Absolutely. Is it ready for market? No. The camera is a year away. The X1D? I tried one at the Hasselblad booth at Photokina. It was disappointing. Low quality EVF with washed out and pixelated view, loud and slow AF, noisy shutter (especially for a leaf shutter) and the camera was almost too hot to hold comfortably after a fer minutes of use. Also, not ready for shipping for at least six months. 

 

It will be interesting to see if Leica comes up with anything in the meantime, no? I think it is far too early to write off Leica, or the S-System. 

[RVB]

I'm sorry you had issues with your S-System. Clearly, Leica needs to address the lens AF issue, which they are well aware of.

 

As far as the Fuji goes.....

 

I doubt that the dynamic range will be superior. The S007 has a DR of 15.3 stops, the most of any still camera. 

 

The difference between 37.5 and 50 MP amounts to a 10-15% increase in linear resolution - not much. Top put this in perspective, on a print, you'd get 2.6 inches more on the long edge at 300 dpi. When Leica announced the S007 was coming to market without a bump in resolution, I wrote a detailed analysis: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)

 

The S lenses are some of the finest lenses that Leica has ever produced. They are all excellent across the board. During my review of the S2 before launch, I was having a discussion with Peter Karbe, head of optics at Leica, about the S lenses. He theorized the resolving power of the S lenses to be in the neighborhood of 200-300 lp/mm, with all S lenses easily achieving at least 50% contrast at 100 lp/mm, wide-open. Looking at the Fuji lens line-up, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of fast aperture glass. Most of the Leica S lenses are f/2.5 and 2.8, with the 24 and 180 coming in at f/3.5. 

 

Is the GFX interesting? Absolutely. Is it ready for market? No. The camera is a year away. The X1D? I tried one at the Hasselblad booth at Photokina. It was disappointing. Low quality EVF with washed out and pixelated view, loud and slow AF, noisy shutter (especially for a leaf shutter) and the camera was almost too hot to hold comfortably after a fer minutes of use. Also, not ready for shipping for at least six months. 

 

It will be interesting to see if Leica comes up with anything in the meantime, no? I think it is far too early to write off Leica, or the S-System. 

 

"I think it is far too early to write off Leica, or the S-System. "  I dont understand why anyone would even consider writing off the S system , Leica are working on a fix for the AF issues and after that whats the problem? 

 

The 007 is excellent, and the glass is of the highest quality. I wouldn't mind seeing multi shot and a 80mp sensor in the next version but I'm in no rush to upgrade, besides I'd rather see a wide angle TS lens than another body!

 

o

[siddhaarta]

I'm sorry you had issues with your S-System. Clearly, Leica needs to address the lens AF issue, which they are well aware of.

 

As far as the Fuji goes.....

 

I doubt that the dynamic range will be superior. The S007 has a DR of 15.3 stops, the most of any still camera. 

 

The difference between 37.5 and 50 MP amounts to a 10-15% increase in linear resolution - not much. Top put this in perspective, on a print, you'd get 2.6 inches more on the long edge at 300 dpi. When Leica announced the S007 was coming to market without a bump in resolution, I wrote a detailed analysis: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)

 

The S lenses are some of the finest lenses that Leica has ever produced. They are all excellent across the board. During my review of the S2 before launch, I was having a discussion with Peter Karbe, head of optics at Leica, about the S lenses. He theorized the resolving power of the S lenses to be in the neighborhood of 200-300 lp/mm, with all S lenses easily achieving at least 50% contrast at 100 lp/mm, wide-open. Looking at the Fuji lens line-up, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of fast aperture glass. Most of the Leica S lenses are f/2.5 and 2.8, with the 24 and 180 coming in at f/3.5. 

 

Is the GFX interesting? Absolutely. Is it ready for market? No. The camera is a year away. The X1D? I tried one at the Hasselblad booth at Photokina. It was disappointing. Low quality EVF with washed out and pixelated view, loud and slow AF, noisy shutter (especially for a leaf shutter) and the camera was almost too hot to hold comfortably after a fer minutes of use. Also, not ready for shipping for at least six months. 

 

It will be interesting to see if Leica comes up with anything in the meantime, no? I think it is far too early to write off Leica, or the S-System. 

 

 

Hi David,

 

thanks for the interesting interview with Leica about S. I agree it is far to early to write of the Leica S.

 

Did you ask also if they are planning new lenses (in the video this question did not appear)? After 2 years without news, it appears they have no plans at all. Don't think they will make a T/S ever, but a tele stronger than 180mm ..., come on Leica. Do I really have to buy the Hasselblad 300mm or adapt the old R offerings??? And if so, please say so Leica, so we know what to do !!!

 

As regards your analysis of the Leica S 007 sensor, I would not agree about the dynamic range. After using the S 007 about 10 months, I would say the highlight handling and the malleability in post is inferior to the Nikon D810. I did not use the 50MP CMOS sensor in its different variants (Pentax, Hasselblad, P1) but all testers say its clearly better than the Nikon D810. 

 

That is not to say that the Leica S007 sensor is not good enough, the sensor size makes a clear difference to FF, especially the acuity (big pixels and perfect lenses), the colors and the shadow handling are very very good, also noise up to 800 is very good. The whole image chain is nicely optimized and it is a very snappy camera. Mature. That said I already have some quality issues which are quite annoying (AF issues, rubbers loosening).

 

If the AF problems would not exist (AF precision, AF hunting, AF failures, AF noise), the S lenses would be a dream, optically they sure are. I prefer the lens selection and their character to the offerings from Hassi and Schneider (as far as I could briefly test some of their lenses).

 

As you mentioned noisy AF of the Hassi X1D, would you say, the AF of the X1D lenses are noisier than the quite annoying Leica lenses AF?

[JeffSD]

For those interested in the official statement in the future of the S-System from Stephan Schulz, global director of business unit professional for Leica:

 

Photokina 2016 – Interview with Stephan Schulz, Director of Leica’s Professional Business Unit

 

 

Short version: Of course, Leica is committed to the S System.

 

 

David, thanks for this. Very helpful.

[Brewster]

Thank you David. This is encouraging, especially with regard to service and turnaround times. I Just returned my 24; lets see if things are better this time.

[dfarkas]

Hi David,

 

thanks for the interesting interview with Leica about S. I agree it is far to early to write of the Leica S.

 

Did you ask also if they are planning new lenses (in the video this question did not appear)? After 2 years without news, it appears they have no plans at all. Don't think they will make a T/S ever, but a tele stronger than 180mm ..., come on Leica. Do I really have to buy the Hasselblad 300mm or adapt the old R offerings??? And if so, please say so Leica, so we know what to do !!!

 

As regards your analysis of the Leica S 007 sensor, I would not agree about the dynamic range. After using the S 007 about 10 months, I would say the highlight handling and the malleability in post is inferior to the Nikon D810. I did not use the 50MP CMOS sensor in its different variants (Pentax, Hasselblad, P1) but all testers say its clearly better than the Nikon D810. 

 

That is not to say that the Leica S007 sensor is not good enough, the sensor size makes a clear difference to FF, especially the acuity (big pixels and perfect lenses), the colors and the shadow handling are very very good, also noise up to 800 is very good. The whole image chain is nicely optimized and it is a very snappy camera. Mature. That said I already have some quality issues which are quite annoying (AF issues, rubbers loosening).

 

If the AF problems would not exist (AF precision, AF hunting, AF failures, AF noise), the S lenses would be a dream, optically they sure are. I prefer the lens selection and their character to the offerings from Hassi and Schneider (as far as I could briefly test some of their lenses).

 

As you mentioned noisy AF of the Hassi X1D, would you say, the AF of the X1D lenses are noisier than the quite annoying Leica lenses AF?

 

We didn't discuss new lenses in the interview. The current line-up is already quite extensive: 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120, 180, 30-90, 120 TS. Perhaps the only area lacking is in longer focal lengths. I've been asking for a 90-250 lens for a while as I think this could round out the system nicely.  

 

I have had discussions with Stephan Schulz and Toni Felsner over the years regarding a wide-angle TS. The issue is that for such a niche product, the cost would be astronomical. Very few people actually use wide-angle TS lenses. The intersection of these photographers and S owners is even smaller. How many lenses could Leica possibly hope to sell? 100? 200? If you take the average R&D and tooling costs of 1-3 million EUR per lens, this is a losing equation.  Would you be willing to pay 20,000 EUR for a lens? For the same price, you could get the new Sinarback S 30|45, a tech camera and a wide-angle view camera lens. 

 

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on DR. Different manufacturers tune their RAW files in various ways to add malleability. Leica files have never been particularly resilient in highlights. The S007 only improves in this regard by a half a stop at the most over the S006. But the shadows are another story entirely. This is why I stated that I expose for the highlights in the scene and let the shadows go dark. At ISO 100, I can pull up the shadows 3 or sometimes 4 stops. They are the most malleable files I've ever worked with in my 26 years of working in digital imaging. 

 

I'd also disagree with saying the images are good up to ISO 800. ISO 1600 and 3200 look incredible. ISO 6400, if properly exposed, is extremely impressive. 

 

I've never had an issue with AF precision on the S. As early as the S2, I felt that the AF was one of the most precise systems I'd used to date. Excellent shot-to-shot consistency, especially compared to N and C who employ fuzzy logic in their predictive AF systems. I agree that after using the completely silent AF in the Leica SL lenses, the S lenses sound pretty noisy by comparison. 

 

To me, the Hassy X1D AF sounded a bit grindy and cheap, like plastic-on-plastic. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[xiaubauu2009]

We didn't discuss new lenses in the interview. The current line-up is already quite extensive: 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120, 180, 30-90, 120 TS. Perhaps the only area lacking is in longer focal lengths. I've been asking for a 90-250 lens for a while as I think this could round out the system nicely.  

 

I have had discussions with Stephan Schulz and Toni Felsner over the years regarding a wide-angle TS. The issue is that for such a niche product, the cost would be astronomical. Very few people actually use wide-angle TS lenses. The intersection of these photographers and S owners is even smaller. How many lenses could Leica possibly hope to sell? 100? 200? If you take the average R&D and tooling costs of 1-3 million EUR per lens, this is a losing equation.  Would you be willing to pay 20,000 EUR for a lens? For the same price, you could get the new Sinarback S 30|45, a tech camera and a wide-angle view camera lens. 

 

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on DR. Different manufacturers tune their RAW files in various ways to add malleability. Leica files have never been particularly resilient in highlights. The S007 only improves in this regard by a half a stop at the most over the S006. But the shadows are another story entirely. This is why I stated that I expose for the highlights in the scene and let the shadows go dark. At ISO 100, I can pull up the shadows 3 or sometimes 4 stops. They are the most malleable files I've ever worked with in my 26 years of working in digital imaging. 

 

I'd also disagree with saying the images are good up to ISO 800. ISO 1600 and 3200 look incredible. ISO 6400, if properly exposed, is extremely impressive. 

 

I've never had an issue with AF precision on the S. As early as the S2, I felt that the AF was one of the most precise systems I'd used to date. Excellent shot-to-shot consistency, especially compared to N and C who employ fuzzy logic in their predictive AF systems. I agree that after using the completely silent AF in the Leica SL lenses, the S lenses sound pretty noisy by comparison. 

 

To me, the Hassy X1D AF sounded a bit grindy and cheap, like plastic-on-plastic.

 

I will have to agree to disagree with the DR too. It is clearly not a 15 stop DR when compare to the 50mega pixel digital back. Not to mention the 100mp back which also claim 15 stop. I do however believe their file to be 16bit in color. As it is way better than the 50 back. Both files of the same scene is just not comparison. And Leica lens, it is sharp and it is pretty stellar. But the reliability issue has really relegate it to some kind of a lemon system for me at least. Lugging a 2-3kg setup to location to have found out that AF stop working, make me feels why I bother with it at all. Not to mention the electronics of the camera is laughably unreliable. Crash hang and even some function just boggles the mind in their logic. Why do they stop down the lens automatically in live view and I am unable to return to full open aperture at all. Rendering live view completely useless. On a Phase back. I can use a 10 stop filter and lens stop down and I still can see a perfect exposed live view, albeit quite a bit noisy. 007 has been out a year or even more. This is not a joke anymore.

 

I am sorry, but Leica S is too old too unreliable and also too famous for all it's fault to not be written off.