FRAMELINES

[wmm]

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I've been discussing some feature requests for digital leica Ms with a super nice leica rep.  however, because some of these things have not been pointed out by many others, he doesn't think they will change soon. 

 

so maybe he's right.  maybe everyone else is satisfied and likes the old traditions, even if they are only there because of past limitations.  so please let me know how you feel about this.  

 

FRAMELINES: the current frameline system on the M240, and others I presume, is that each frameline is for a PAIR of framelines.  in other words, you don't just see the frameline for your lens, but your view is partially obstructed or cluttered with an extraneous frameline for a different lens.  originally, with the M3, there were 3 framelines and each one was for 1 specific lens.  later, when leica added more framelines to this purely mechanical system, the lenses were paired so that each frameline was coupled with another.

 

jump to the electronic digital world.  the M240, and others I assume, still stick to this system, even though the frameline is electronic and you can choose the color.  imagine if you could also choose which 1 frameline you wanted to see.

 

imagine how nice it would be to let users choose if they want to continue with the old paired system or just electronically choose the one that is correct for their lens, keeping the rest of the screen clear, so you can see what you are shooting?  in this case, a simple menu item would make sense. also, if you only use a few lenses, you could move those to the top of the list. 

 

would others be interested in this as a firmware update?

 

thanks.

[digger1914]

I do not regard the extra frame line as an issue.  I am not in the "satisfied and likes the old traditions" club, I just don't find it annoying or obstructive.

[pechelman]

i like the extra framelines. they especially help with composition when using a 28mm or a 21mm without an external viewfinder.

[Peter Kilmister]

@wmm: Welcome to the forum.

 

You make a good point. I'd support the idea of selecting which frame lines I want and disposing of the others.

However, if time is not an issue and one wishes to select the optimal lens for the shot then multi-view frame lines can be a help.

No perfect answer so maybe it needs to be a menu selectable choice.

 

For example, you are shooting in an urban environment with 35mm. All you need is that frame line.

If you are out in the sticks and shooting a rural scene you might need guidance. That's one example of a time for multiple frame lines to be a choice.

[pico]

even though the frameline is electronic and you can choose the color.  imagine if you could also choose which 1 frameline you wanted to see.

 

Electronic? Really? I think the frame lines are determined by physical masks in the rangefinder.

.

[pop]

The framelines are mechanical. No amount of software will make one line go away.

[Peter Kilmister]

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Oh well, that's dealt with that. Thank you to pico and pop.

[jonathanccwong]

I think the idea can be quite interested.
One thing they can do in the future is couple this with 6 bit-coding or manual lens selection.

So when a 6 bit coded lens is detected, the proper frame line is selected.
Perhaps if uncoded then it reverts back to classic 'paired' frame lines

Knowing of course that this cannot be retrofitted in the current M240, 246, 262 but it'd be a cool to have this for future Ms

[Peter Kilmister]

I think the idea can be quite interested.

One thing they can do in the future is couple this with 6 bit-coding or manual lens selection.

So when a 6 bit coded lens is detected, the proper frame line is selected.

Perhaps if uncoded then it reverts back to classic 'paired' frame lines

 

Knowing of course that this cannot be retrofitted in the current M240, 246, 262 but it'd be a cool to have this for future Ms

Agree.

[JonPB]

I could see this being implemented with a transparent digital display integrated into the viewfinder optic. That'd offer a lot of upsides: not only single, selectable framelines, but also framelines that vary in size by focus distance and lens (to compensate for breathing) and in position by focus distance (to compensate for parallax), not to mention more informative presentation of exposure information such as a live histogram when the sensor is used to meter the scene. All of that would be quite welcome. However, technological advances and capability expansions do not always equate to functional improvements. If such a viewfinder means reducing brightness and clarity, then I'm not at all interested. How I see and consequently relate to the scene is far more important to my photographic process than how precisely I capture what I choose to capture, and the traditional M viewfinder (and its metering information) is already precise enough for my uses.

 

Of course, Leica need not go that far. They could move from three frameline screens to six. Doing so would make the mechanism more complex and so more failure prone. I prefer reliability.

 

If technology advances sufficiently to not impair the viewfinder's existing qualities, I would happily embrace improvements. Otherwise, thank you but no.

 

The only feasible solution I've thought of would be offering framelines in the a la carte program. Shoot only 35, 50, and 90? A camera can be set for that. Prefer a typical focus distance of 2m or 5m rather than 1m? Done. I'd probably stick with the current setup, but I'm always happy when others get what they want, too.

 

Cheers,

Jon

[pico]

Personally, all I want in the viewfinder are frame-lines for my lens. All the rest is distracting.

But then, I was raised using an M2, then M4, M4-P ... then it all went to hell beginning

with the M7.

.

[Jeff S]

The framelines are mechanical. No amount of software will make one line go away.

New members missed all of Mark's fun...  http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/66999-anatomy-of-the-leica-m8-framelines/

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

 

jump to the electronic digital world.  the M240, and others I assume, still stick to this system, even though the frameline is electronic and you can choose the color.  imagine if you could also choose which 1 frameline you wanted to see.

 

 

Mechanical as noted.....but the illumination of those frame lines is now electronic (the illumination window on the camera front is gone).

 

Jeff

[SonomaBear]

My 70 year old eyes want an M with EVF ala Q or SL -- no frame lines needed.

I love my Q but hate to go back to my Canon kits for different focal lengths.  And the SL with zooms is as overweight as the Canon EOS I haul around.

[edwardkaraa]

Focusing M lenses with an EVF is an exercise in masochism. No matter how old your eyes are, and especially if they are old, good luck in getting well focused pictures if you shoot anything but static subjects. The RF remains the best option for manual focus, that and a bright focusing screen with a split image and microprism collar. In my humble opinion EVF are best used with AF.

[jaapv]

That is a bit pessimistic, Edward. I tried the SL and it works pretty well. The slower EVF of the M  is more of a challenge with moving subjects, but with practice, it can be done. But then, novices have  trouble focusing on moving subjects with any manual system.

[250swb]

 

would others be interested in this as a firmware update?

 

 

Why not, but at the same time what's the problem?

 

People are never going to be perfectly satisfied, but nowadays the micro management of life has taken on horrific proportions where every tiny personal irritation needs to be vocalised and made an issue of. Personally I think if you can drive a car without crashing it and do all the complicated multi tasking required you can learn to see past the extra frame line, it becomes invisible, which is what photographers have managed to do for 60 years. But now you've thrown your hands up in the air and call the view 'obstructed', oh well this will be another blow against human dexterity much like the self driving electric car.

 

 

Steve

[earleygallery]

I've been discussing some feature requests for digital leica Ms with a super nice leica rep. however, because some of these things have not been pointed out by many others, he doesn't think they will change soon.

 

so maybe he's right. maybe everyone else is satisfied and likes the old traditions, even if they are only there because of past limitations. so please let me know how you feel about this.

 

FRAMELINES: the current frameline system on the M240, and others I presume, is that each frameline is for a PAIR of framelines. in other words, you don't just see the frameline for your lens, but your view is partially obstructed or cluttered with an extraneous frameline for a different lens. originally, with the M3, there were 3 framelines and each one was for 1 specific lens. later, when leica added more framelines to this purely mechanical system, the lenses were paired so that each frameline was coupled with another.

 

jump to the electronic digital world. the M240, and others I assume, still stick to this system, even though the frameline is electronic and you can choose the color. imagine if you could also choose which 1 frameline you wanted to see.

 

imagine how nice it would be to let users choose if they want to continue with the old paired system or just electronically choose the one that is correct for their lens, keeping the rest of the screen clear, so you can see what you are shooting? in this case, a simple menu item would make sense. also, if you only use a few lenses, you could move those to the top of the list.

 

would others be interested in this as a firmware update?

 

thanks.

The same idea has been discussed here many times before.

 

People assumed the frame lines were digital in the latest M's but they're the same mechanical design as before. The only difference is that they're illuminated by an led (well, 2 led's) instead of ambient light via a window on the front as per previous models.

 

It would take quite a major re-design of the rangefinder to incorporate digital frame lines.

[ralphh]

I could see this being implemented with a transparent digital display integrated into the viewfinder optic. That'd offer a lot of upsides: not only single, selectable framelines, but also framelines that vary in size by focus distance and lens (to compensate for breathing) and in position by focus distance (to compensate for parallax), not to mention more informative presentation of exposure information such as a live histogram when the sensor is used to meter the scene. All of that would be quite welcome. However, technological advances and capability expansions do not always equate to functional improvements. If such a viewfinder means reducing brightness and clarity, then I'm not at all interested. How I see and consequently relate to the scene is far more important to my photographic process than how precisely I capture what I choose to capture, and the traditional M viewfinder (and its metering information) is already precise enough for my uses.

 

Of course, Leica need not go that far. They could move from three frameline screens to six. Doing so would make the mechanism more complex and so more failure prone. I prefer reliability.

 

If technology advances sufficiently to not impair the viewfinder's existing qualities, I would happily embrace improvements. Otherwise, thank you but no.

 

The only feasible solution I've thought of would be offering framelines in the a la carte program. Shoot only 35, 50, and 90? A camera can be set for that. Prefer a typical focus distance of 2m or 5m rather than 1m? Done. I'd probably stick with the current setup, but I'm always happy when others get what they want, too.

 

Cheers,

Jon

 

I would actually like to see that implemented.  Then we could also get frame lines that are actual boxes rather than a collection on lines.  If I had £1 for each time I've copped off feet with my 50mm it would probably have paid for itself by now, and I'm convinced it's mostly due to the fact that the bottom frameline on the 50 is basically non-existent and just doesn't seem to register in my mind.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Exodies]

<snip>

framelines that vary in size by focus distance and lens (to compensate for breathing) and in position by focus distance (to compensate for parallax)

 <snip>

The parallax problem doesn't only apply to objects at the focus distance but to objects at all distances present in the scene.