Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[steppenw0lf]

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_{Still another repetition of many earlier entries. I suggest you simply write da capo or ditto - and we will know exactly what you want to say.}

Edited June 8, 2017 by steppenw0lf

[Jeff S]

What Peter said.

 

Jeff

Edited June 8, 2017 by Jeff S

[Peter H]

_{Still another repetition of many earlier entries. I suggest you simply write da capo or ditto - and we will know exactly what you want to say.}

How unpleasant.

[Chaemono]

I deliberately used the Summicrons because I knew they are capable of attaining high micro contrast and that the mediocre glas Hasselblad went for would be no match for them in certain situations. From a commercial point of view, one could interpret this as a strategic blunder by Hasselblad but it's really more of a dilemma. The unique selling point of the X1D is MF in the palm of one's hand so the lenses have to match this form factor. The result is what one sees, lenses that are soft, not only wide open, and that create not very pleasing octagonal shaped bokeh balls. 

[Jeff S]

Have you made prints? What size?

 

Jeff

[Chaemono]

What I really like about ON1 Resize is that it allows me to make really large prints even with 24MP. Below are crops of two photos posted earlier but this time the M10 has been resized. Look at the detail, the plasticity, the 3D-ness of the Leica image (Summicron 75 at f/2.6), it almost pops out of the screen, and look how soft the X1D picture (XCD 90 shot wide open) looks.

 

Here is the link with the full size files that can be dowloaded:

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9FSKSS/

 

M10

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X1D

[Jeff S]

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I conduct my own tests and print evaluations, but thanks anyway.

 

For online pics, an iPhone suffices.

 

Jeff

Edited June 8, 2017 by Jeff S

[Chaemono]

You're welcome.

[steveBK]

I have to say a number of the X1D shots look soft.

I'm not sure if its lens softness, missed focus, shutter slap/vibration, or what..

[almoore]

the mediocre glas Hasselblad went for...one could interpret this as a strategic blunder by Hasselblad but it's really more of a dilemma. The unique selling point of the X1D is MF in the palm of one's hand so the lenses have to match this form factor. The result is what one sees, lenses that are soft, not only wide open, and that create not very pleasing octagonal shaped bokeh balls. 

 

And yet photographers who've used the X1D are almost universal in their praise for the quality that the camera and lens combination is delivering, if frustrated by some of its operational quirks. The quality of the Hasselblad lenses is not going to be the limiting factor in getting the best out of this camera.

[IkarusJohn]

I don't know anything about Chaemono's methods or techniques but I'm astonished at how little difference he or she is getting from the two cameras, and the idea that a 24mp 24x36 sensor should be indistinguishable from a 50 mp 33x44 sensor I think requires very different testing from anything we can carry out from the small compressed images we can look at here. I have to say, with no wish to be rude, that since the M10 is capable of better-looking images than we can see here, no one should be surprised that the X1D is also.

 

In my opinion, which I wish I could substantiate with some prints for you to see, the X1D is capable of producing superior files, but it is not such a convenient camera to use, so the comparison doesn't end with file quality. In fact, such a comparison ends up being meaningless in most respects if you find one camera is better than the other for the type of photography you do.

 

Thanks to Chaemono for all the effort and patience, but I think we're seeing only a tiny part of a much bigger picture.

I'm sure that's entirely right. The only point I was making is that presented in the same medium (here, with relatively low resolution) the differences are marginal. Expertly printed large and examined, those difference would, I'm sure be more apparent. But, Leica has done such a great job of extracting the best it can from 35mm format, with 24MP sensors, I'm not sure that marginal gain is worth it. I'm not even convinced I'd notice.

 

This is partly my preference for content over technical perfection ...

[Peter H]

I'm sure that's entirely right. The only point I was making is that presented in the same medium (here, with relatively low resolution) the differences are marginal. Expertly printed large and examined, those difference would, I'm sure be more apparent. But, Leica has done such a great job of extracting the best it can from 35mm format, with 24MP sensors, I'm not sure that marginal gain is worth it. I'm not even convinced I'd notice.

 

This is partly my preference for content over technical perfection ...

 

 

 

Yes, I wholly agree, and when push came to shove I preferred and chose the M10 over the X1D for those same reasons.

 

But I still defend the X1D against what in my view is the unfounded criticism that it is not capable of superior results to the smaller format cameras, because it is. That doesn't mean we each ought to buy one.

[Jeff S]

And that capability is unlikely to be demonstrated online. Again, an iPhone can fare well here. It's not just about MP; it's about things like color, tonal gradations and a certain 'presence' that is best seen in prints. Of course none of that matters without a wonderful pic to start, and one needs to like using the gear to get out there in the first place.

 

Jeff

[fsprow]

Let me try to make a contribution here.

 

I do not have an X1D but have an H6D-100C -- on the Leica side I have an M240 and various film Leicas.

 

I borrowed an X1D with the 90mm.  I also used my HCD 100mm lens with an adapter on it for comparison.

 

Shot with the X1D/90, the X1D with the 100mm HCD with adapter and the Leica with 75 Summicron -  I processed in Hasselblad Phocus and Lightroom and made large prints of a still in the studio.

 

Observations from a non-statistical test.

- The X1D with the H lens made substantially the most pleasing large print -- resolution and 3D character. Closer to my 100MP H6D than I would have thought.

- The Leica made beautiful prints, only slightly less resolution than above.

- The X1D with its "native" 90mm was not as pleasing, certainly lower resolution than either of the above.

- Hasselblad Phocus post processing had by far the best out of box colors versus Lightroom in all tests.

 

Obviously, many variables and variations in individual lenses but thought this might be worth passing along.

Edited June 9, 2017 by fsprow

[IkarusJohn]

Yes, I wholly agree, and when push came to shove I preferred and chose the M10 over the X1D for those same reasons.

 

But I still defend the X1D against what in my view is the unfounded criticism that it is not capable of superior results to the smaller format cameras, because it is. That doesn't mean we each ought to buy one.

Oh no, I wasn't criticising it; just saying that the benefirs of the larger sensor were not immediately apparent in the comparison shots.

 

One thing that is often forgotten, I think, is that 35mm is highly developed. In Leica's case, we have over 50 years of excellent lenses to choose from, and Leica has developed them to a very high standard. The lenses are compact and very high performing. As an overall package, I've decided that for the size and quality, I'm staying with 35mm format.

 

The X1D is also remarkably compact, and the sensor well known, but with only two or three lenses; I suspect that if Hasselblad wants to match the comparable quality of the Leica M lenses, their XCD lenses will grow in size and shoot up in price.

 

Either way, for me, any marginal improvement in the larger sensor is far fro justified.

Edited June 9, 2017 by IkarusJohn

[Jeff S]

What were you expecting from forum JPEGs? Nothing surprising here... other than maybe your conclusions.

 

Jeff

Edited June 9, 2017 by Jeff S

[LD_50]

What were you expecting from forum JPEGs? Nothing surprising here... other than maybe your conclusions.

Jeff

I thought there were links to full size downloads?

[Jeff S]

I thought there were links to full size downloads?

Even then, there are dozens of variables in the capture to print workflow that I would want to control on my own....over an extended period under varying conditions.... before I would draw any meaningful conclusions.

 

Jeff

[FlashGordonPhotography]

So I caved.....

 

I now have an X1D and the three currently available lenses. It'll be my landscape/travel camera and probably see some studio use (leaf shutter lenses). It's been less than 24 hours and today's weather is horrid. It'll take me weeks to really evaluate the X1D versus other systems I use but a few things are already very obvious.

 

1. The lenses are sharp. Very sharp. Even wide open they're good to the edges. I have yet to do infinity corner tests though. However (I already knew this) they don't draw at all like Leica lenses. My S lenses are still the bench mark for drawing and speed at the expense of cost, size and weight. Leica would do well to consider a set of f4 lenses for the S system. For my uses (landscape and studio) the blur won't matter but if you want butter blur S lenses still rule (and M and SL as well). I have not use the HC lenses so I have no idea if they're better. Except for the 210 I'm not interested because this camera, for me, is all about size/performance ratio. I've seen the samples of the horrid hexagonal highlights from the X1D lenses. But I'd be taking my S to shoot in those environments because of the faster lenses anyway. So far CA seems pretty well controlled but I haven't done any stress tests yet.

 

2. The X1D with all three lenses is 200 grams heavier than the SL with zoom. Remarkable. The body is stunning. Possible the nicest camera in the hand I've ever picked up. The grip is sublime. Personally I need 2/F to get sharp handheld images which is about the same as my S system. I might get a bit better over time but that's what I expected. With the M I can go 1/F and lower again with the SL and IS zooms.

 

3. The firmware is a work in progress. So much missing. Simple things like reviewing an image in the EVF. No spirit level in the EVF. But I do like the interface and touch controls. The biggest dumb ass decision is that you have to press and hold a button before you can use the touch screen to change the focus point. Daft.. But at least you can change the focus point which is better than the S007. I had one occasion where I turned the camera on and the EVF failed to operate. Rebooting sorted that out but it's a glitch. Startup is slow and the shutter firing is weird. But for MY use I don't think they'll be an issue. But a reportage/street camera this probably isn't. It's only been a day but the SL feels much more intuitive and speedier in use. I'm sure I'll get better with the X1D but those tiny buttons aren't going to help.

 

4. The sensor is, as expected, fantastic. Same as the 645Z. No LENR (yay!!). 1 hour maximum shutter speed. Files are lovely and pliable. Beyond anything I have in 35mm including the A7R2. It's, of course and incremental improvement. But it's there. 

 

5. Phocus crashes on my brand new Win 10 machine every time I try to zoom in to 100%. Will try a re-install. LR files look great but come in with a touch too much magenta. I have yet to do any real comparisons yet, although the Phocus colours look lovely out of the gate.

 

6. I have no interest in selling my SL system. It's not even remotely related to the X1D apart from both being similar sized mirrorless cameras. Functionally and operationally they're polar opposites. Also still holding on to my S and M cameras. However I am already considering selling my 645Z system, even though that's the one with the lens range etc...

 

That'll do for now. Any questions let me know and I'll try my best to answer them. I'm off to play with my new toy....

 

Gordon

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Hallo,

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[Guest VVJ]

Congratulations!  I am sure you will have fun with it and your back will probably like it too!

Not only the S requires lightweight lenses IMHO, also the SL does...

Leica already made that mistake once with the S.  Why make it again with the SL?  Hasselblad made the right call here IMO.

Changing focus via touch screen is a mistake though.  I already don't like it on the Leica T and this sounds worse...