Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[Joshua Lowe]

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Who do I have to sleep with to get a couple of X1D RAW files to play with?  You'd think that Hassy would have put out a more comprehensive group of samples by now. 

[steppenw0lf]

Here are five:  (from demo camera)    http://www.pictures.earth/p340924811

Nr. 4 shows wonderful autumn colors.

But sorry: I still cannot see a big jump up in IQ from the SL (or the Canon 5Ds).

 

Is this a surprise ? Remember that the sensor of the X1D came out 3 years ago with the H5D. The SL and 5Ds and Sony alpha sensors came much later and are therefore already the "next generation".

After 3 years it is time to think about the successor of the chip - but I do not know exactly which is the next step. (already the 100MP ?) How long will it take until this chip is also affordable ?

Edited December 22, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[ramarren]

...

But sorry: I still cannot see a big jump up in IQ from the SL (or the Canon 5Ds).

 

Is this a surprise ? Remember that the sensor of the X1D came out 3 years ago with the H5D. The SL and 5Ds and Sony alpha sensors came much later and are therefore already the "next generation".

After 3 years it is time to think about the successor of the chip - but I do not know exactly which is the next step. (already the 100MP ?) How long will it take until this chip is also affordable ?

 

 

How much of a "big jump" can we reasonably expect when the image files as they are surpass all practical needs for resolution, dynamic range, and micro-contrast already?

 

We have to get beyond this "every new camera must be a quantum leap" mentality. That was fine a decade ago when digital camera technology was still pretty young, but we're now well past the juvenile stage of this technology's development, IMO. 

[steppenw0lf]

I have only money for quantum leaps. Smaller leaps are simply unaffordable at these prices.    

Simply said: If there is no big difference, then there is no big difference. So I simply go on using what I have.

Edited December 22, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[ramarren]

I have only money for quantum leaps. Smaller leaps are simply unaffordable at these prices.    

 

 

That's why I'm changing cameras pretty infrequently nowadays. Practically anything I've had made since about 2010 will do the job without any issues. 

 

Nowadays, I buy to keep and the nuances of use are much more important than "IQ". 

[Guest]

Who do I have to sleep with to get a couple of X1D RAW files to play with?  You'd think that Hassy would have put out a more comprehensive group of samples by now. 

 

Indeed the examples they did provide I thought were absolutely terrible. The models looked dreary and the composition was so, so boring and uninspiring to me. Ming Thein did some images by the coast, those images were far superior to the first official announcement images.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Guest

[LocalHero1953]

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Simply read the manual.       How difficult can it be to touch the screen or to press a button or two ? (Just the same buttons as for the menus) Not as easy as with a joystick, but manageable.

 

Yes, one would have to read the manual, as it sounds like (apart from touchscreen) the only option is two horizontal dials, not the rather obvious and intuitive joystick or direction buttons.

I'm on this thread out of curiosity because I have no intention of buying the X1D however good it is; I have no particular wish to be critical - I have always liked Hasselblads from afar and I hope it succeeds. But this way of using multipoint AF sounds a bit of an afterthought. I look forward to hearing from those buying the camera who wish to use AF rapidly. "Manageable" isn't what I look for from this camera.

Edited December 22, 2016 by LocalHero1953

[Peter H]

Yes, one would have to read the manual, as it sounds like (apart from touchscreen) the only option is two horizontal dials, not the rather obvious and intuitive joystick or direction buttons.

I'm on this thread out of curiosity because I have no intention of buying the X1D however good it is; I have no particular wish to be critical - I have always liked Hasselblads from afar and I hope it succeeds. But this way of using multipoint AF sounds a bit of an afterthought. I look forward to hearing from those buying the camera who wish to use AF rapidly. "Manageable" isn't what I look for from this camera.

From my limited experience of this camera, it is at least as easy and intuitive to handle as an M, the model for rapidity and simplicity. It only had one AF point so having more will be a bonus, and if they are as quick and easy to select as the MF magnification points were, I shan't mourn the lack of a joystick.

 

"Manageable" would be a terribly unfair way to describe it. I've never come across a brand new camera so well designed from an ergonomic point of view, and I find the combination of beautiful handling and output very compelling. Whether you feel it has anything to offer you or not, I think it would be a shame to misunderstand it in this way.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Peter H

[LocalHero1953]

From my limited experience of this camera, it is at least as easy and intuitive to handle as an M, the model for rapidity and simplicity. It only had one AF point so having more will be a bonus, and if they are as quick and easy to select as the MF magnification points were, I shan't mourn the lack of a joystick.

 

"Manageable" would be a terribly unfair way to describe it. I've never come across a brand new camera so well designed from an ergonomic point of view, and I find the combination of beautiful handling and output very compelling. Whether you feel it has anything to offer you or not, I think it would be a shame to misunderstand it in this way.

Well, I'm looking forward to hearing how it works when it is actually in the hands of you and others.

I don't think I understand the camera in any particular way at all. But it is still a reasonable question to ask how AF point selection works. and whether it is fast and intuitive.

[Peter H]

Well, I'm looking forward to hearing how it works when it is actually in the hands of you and others.

I don't think I understand the camera in any particular way at all. But it is still a reasonable question to ask how AF point selection works. and whether it is fast and intuitive.

 

 

Yes, a perfectly reasonable question.

 

There are two methods, the two dials on the grip, or the touch screen on the back. And the app for remote use is a third I suppose.

 

Whether they are fast and intuitive is trickier to answer. I shan't be expecting the camera to be a super-fast-autofocusing whizz but I do expect, given the superb ergonomics of the controls in all other respects, that it will be fast enough for me. Also the two dials worked brilliantly for shifting the MF magnification point which is a reasonable test. Being an old-time Nintendo fanboy these finger controls come naturally!  I certainly much prefer two dials to the multi-direction pads some cameras have. And anyway, when I've used cameras with joysticks (I own one) and needed to react really quickly to a scene, I've virtually always focussed and recomposed anyway (or simply not bothered with recomposing if it's really that urgent, in which case other priorities take over) which is always quicker for me, being 100% intuitive coming from so many years of M usage. Guiding the focus point to exactly where I want it,  which whilst only taking a second at most, still feels slow in comparison.

 

This is all personal. If you have no intention of buying the camera it may not be worth your while spending a little time with it to find out for yourself how it feels in the flesh. I did (and shall do again) and I have said how impressed I was. That now makes me sound biased, but I have no bias that I'm aware of; my opinions come as a result of the strongly positive impression the camera and particularly the prints I got from it made on me. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Peter H

[LocalHero1953]

I doubt I shall spend much time with it, though I don't mean that to denigrate it. I am happy in the overpriced Leica ecosystem, and have no need to enter the overpriced Hasselblad ecosystem  . I will watch from a distance how others get on with the X1D, though if I come across one in a shop, I'm sure I'll play with it.

Edited December 22, 2016 by LocalHero1953

[Peter H]

I doubt I shall spend much time with it, though I don't mean that to denigrate it. I am happy in the overpriced Leica ecosystem, and have no need to enter the overpriced Hasselblad ecosystem  . I will watch from a distance how others get on with the X1D, though if I come across one in a shop, I'm sure I'll play with it.

 

 

Overpriced ecosystems indeed!

 

I was seduced by Fuji. I'm no longer happy with the idea that 2x the price of a wonderful camera with a unique viewfinder like the X-Pro 2 is considered a reasonable-to-low price to pay for a lens. 

 

I could have a Fuji/Hasselblad kit that would cover every single photographic style and opportunity I care about, delivering quality of the very highest order,  for the price of a moderate M system which in many ways is starting to feel less than optimal, and the full-frame sensor less necessary than it once did. The M will always be a special camera but times change. And I expect I feel much the same about the SL as you do about the X1D.

 

Food for thought on a storm-battered afternoon  if nothing else.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Peter H

[Guest]

This is all personal. If you have no intention of buying the camera it may not be worth your while spending a little time with it to find out for yourself how it feels in the flesh. I did (and shall do again) and I have said how impressed I was. That now makes me sound biased, but I have no bias that I'm aware of; my opinions come as a result of the strongly positive impression the camera and particularly the prints I got from it made on me. 

 

Not at all biased. I feel exactly the same. There are things I much prefer about the X1D, the grip is much more comfortable than the SL. Some of the menus are more logical, I can find things in the manual. I have had 2 hours demo with it and been able to keep the images. On my Mac those test pictures, all hand-held, look simply great and to be honest that finally is what I care about.

 

I've pre-ordered but as I was late to that process I will have the camera next year sometime. I am happy to wait.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Guest

[meerec]

I played with X1D for half an hour, kept the images. I liked them all, no doubt IQ was there with the two standard lenses.

But I can do a lot more with no lesser quality with my SL, I concluded, as far as results go.

The ergonomics was not there // unfinished firmware.

[Guest]

I played with X1D for half an hour, kept the images. I liked them all, no doubt IQ was there with the two standard lenses.

But I can do a lot more with no lesser quality with my SL, I concluded, as far as results go.

The ergonomics was not there // unfinished firmware.

 

I remember the first  few months with the SL, was also unfinished firmware which i have to say has had several updates and is now for most people excellent. It is only by owning or renting and using that one finds the 'little things' one does not like about a camera. 

[alib]

I was, like i suspect a few other peope here, an early adopter of the Sony A7R. With that camera, i was dissapointed after using it for a few days and it felt like a mistake. The results were great, but I just did not get the enjoyment of using it.

 

I was also and still am very interested in the X1D, but my desire for change has been calmed by the SL which i have had now for a week now and am soooo enjoying the autofocus, the moving focus point and the 24-90 zoom.... and still no dissapointment in sight .

 

 

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[ramarren]

I remember the first  few months with the SL, was also unfinished firmware which i have to say has had several updates and is now for most people excellent. It is only by owning or renting and using that one finds the 'little things' one does not like about a camera. 

 

 

... as well as the little things one appreciates about a camera. 

 

I reluctantly purchased a Sony A7. I never really liked it, I was just happy for a time that there was a digital body I could use with my R lenses without having to crop the format that the lenses were designed for. But I found using it to be an awkward, clumsy experience and the cameras performance was never really all that special to me. So many subtle problems kept showing up. 

 

The Leica M-P did a better job with the R lenses. Then I acquired the SL, and it's all be up since. The SL gets better and better the more I use it, my lenses perform beautifully with it. I almost completely stopped using the M-P; when I started using it again, I found I never used the EVF anymore and I mostly used just the 35 and 75 lenses. I wanted something simpler in the M so went for the M-D: perfect. 

 

I spent a good half hour or so getting comfortable with the X1D body at the demo day. As I've explained previously, the X1D would be a specific use kind of camera for me: I want it with an ultra-wide lens and I'll crop the format to square for a 37 Mpixel capture. It would be my holy grail, a digital SWC. I await it being available in release, and I do hope they come up with a lens closer to the 22mm that would be ideal for me. If they do, I will likely figure out how to afford it; if they don't, I might yet figure out how to get one with the 30mm. 

 

I wait patiently while Hasselblad gets their X1D production rolling. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by ramarren

[mgrayson3]

Interesting. I did the math on square crops. The SWC is a 38mm lens on 56mm square, right? That's a ratio of 38/56 = 0.68, where lower is wider.

 

Sticking with MF digital and ignoring tech cams, we get:

 

The Pentax 25 on the 645Z is 25/33 =0.76. I don't hear much about the 25.

Leica S with 24 Super Elmar is next at 24/30 = 0.8. It's too bad that the Leica frame height is only 30mm, but what can you do?

Pentax 645Z with 28-45 zoom, 28/33 = 0.85

X1D with 30mm, 30/33 = 0.91

 

The Canon 17TS-E easily covers 33x33. That would give 17/33 = 0.52. I bet an X1D Canon adapter comes out soon. 

 

Not ignoring tech cams, the winner would be IQ3100 with Canon 17 (it covers) at 17/40.4.=0.43!

 

I hope you get your 22mm,

 

Matt

[scott kirkpatrick]

The P45+ back fits on an SWC and has a 36.8 by 49.1 mm sensor.  It's a lovely CCD with 6.8 micron pixels.  If I crop to a square, its ratio is just over 1.0, but if I stitch two shots vertically, which works for most of the subjects that seem to fit the SWC, I get 38/49.1 = 0.77, which is getting pretty close to the SWC with film.  Of course the SL with a 15mm R lens (there are two nice ones) gives 15/24 = 0.625 for square format, and using the new CV 12 gives 0.5, which is pretty awesome!

 

Personally, I think for architecture or landscape, putting two overlapped shots of about 55 MPx behind the Zeiss 38 Biogon is a pretty good approach.  The equipment exists and has been paid for.

 

scott

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[meerec]

I was, like i suspect a few other peope here, an early adopter of the Sony A7R. With that camera, i was dissapointed after using it for a few days and it felt like a mistake. The results were great, but I just did not get the enjoyment of using it.

 

I was also and still am very interested in the X1D, but my desire for change has been calmed by the SL which i have had now for a week now and am soooo enjoying the autofocus, the moving focus point and the 24-90 zoom.... and still no dissapointment in sight .

Same about Sony.

 

I went from a long time Canon shooter, to Fuji X100/XT-1 then to Sony A7R and A7R2. Never happy. SL calmed me down one year ago. The body (even if not the prettiest) is so versatile. And the abundance of lenses puts Hasselblad X1D to dust unless you're happy with the choice of two and soon the third lens. Soon?

 

And I would not be happy with 2-3 lenses. I shoot with six !! M-lenses 10-15-24-35-50-90mm and the 90-280 zoom. I can't get the same in Hasselblad !! You can't even buy the X1D.