Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[Jeff S]

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Not surprising since he's got a formal association with Hasselblad. Hardly the height of independence, anymore.

 

 

 

As long as one has been warned, as he wrote in his initial X1D article...

 

"In the interests of full disclosure, I am a Hasselblad Ambassador, so my objectivity may be in question. But I do have a significant amount of skin in the game, too – all of the V system (including CFV) was acquired prior to my appointment, and good chunk of the H system was purchased by me at retail."

 

I read him (for now) the same way I read Leica reviews from folks like David Farkas or Jono Slack.  While they emphasize the positive, only time tells whether they reveal objective criticism....and don't misrepresent anything. 

 

For me, no big deal, as I eventually conduct my own tests and make my own judgments if I'm that interested.  But it's fun to read other views.

 

Jeff

Edited July 9, 2016 by Jeff S

[ramarren]

As long as one has been warned, as he wrote in his initial X1D article...

 

"In the interests of full disclosure, I am a Hasselblad Ambassador, so my objectivity may be in question. But I do have a significant amount of skin in the game, too – all of the V system (including CFV) was acquired prior to my appointment, and good chunk of the H system was purchased by me at retail."

 

I read him (for now) the same way I read Leica reviews from folks like David Farkas or Jono Slack.  While they emphasize the positive, only time tells whether they reveal objective criticism....and don't misrepresent anything. 

 

For me, no big deal, as I eventually conduct my own tests and make my own judgments if I'm that interested.  But it's fun to read other views.

 

Jeff

 

 

Same here. 

[tom0511]

I'm sure it'll turn out fine in the end but I agree about not ordering before production units are available. I'm not sure what the hurry is anyway, the camera will still be available next year (and the year after..). 

 

I guess its pressure from the market.

I am not sure if the pressure to bring new products faster and faster leads to better products. Innovation is good but also often leads to customers have to play beta testers.

[steppenw0lf]

Ming Thein writes "very objectively": This is not final hardware and there will be changes AND THESE CHANGES WILL ONLY BE IMPROVEMENTS.

Is this a remainder of british humour left in the former colonies or is this to be taken seriously ?

To me this shows that he likes to give a very personal view with some nice fotos (if you like the style of his fotos, and yes, I do. And MF fits his style).

But you could also objectively say he is terribly biased. (And sometimes also writes some stupid stuff without any scruples.)

And at the end he almost pushes you towards perordering the camera (that is simply not finished).

 

And on the other side I remember he found the SL way too big for a photographers hands, it was not possible to hold it for a while without problems or severe pains. 

 

The more I try to find a clean evaluation of his reports, the more I have to say: Photos are great (if you like his architectural style), but the content is mainly humbug. (Another web guru/seller like Huff and Rockwell, so enjoy the photos and forget the rest).

Back to the camera topic: X1D is unproven and for an amateur very expensive. SL is also very expensive. That's the most they have in common.

The SL is finally a camera to continue using R lenses with a decent digital camera. The X1D has nothing to do with that - so no comparison.

 

For a professional the price should not matter at all - at least this is an amateurs view who thinks that the business investments can be deducted from tax (over time). So a S007 or "big" Hasselblad should be more useful because they simply are capable of more. Please explain if this is completely false or far from reality (I mean the tax deduction) - I would like to understand this better.

 

I have an SL, but I am realistic enough to know that in 2-3 years latest, 50MP or more will be a common standard. Then both cameras will be uninteresting for technic fanboys. That's simply the way digital works.

(The photos will still be excellent, but this does not matter in a forum if there is anything "better" with a newer sensor).

Edited July 14, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[Steve Spencer]

Ming Thein writes "very objectively": This is not final hardware and there will be changes AND THESE CHANGES WILL ONLY BE IMPROVEMENTS.

Is this a remainder of british humour left in the former colonies or is this to be taken seriously ?

To me this shows that he likes to give a very personal view with some nice fotos (if you like the style of his fotos, and yes, I do. And MF fits his style).

But you could also objectively say he is terribly biased. (And sometimes also writes some stupid stuff without any scruples.)

And at the end he almost pushes you towards perordering the camera (that is simply not finished).

 

And on the other side I remember he found the SL way too big for a photographers hands, it was not possible to hold it for a while without problems or severe pains. 

 

The more I try to find a clean evaluation of his reports, the more I have to say: Photos are great (if you like his architectural style), but the content is mainly humbug. (Another web guru/seller like Huff and Rockwell, so enjoy the photos and forget the rest).

Back to the camera topic: X1D is unproven and for an amateur very expensive. SL is also very expensive. That's the most they have in common.

The SL is finally a camera to continue using R lenses with a decent digital camera. The X1D has nothing to do with that - so no comparison.

 

For a professional the price should not matter at all - at least this is an amateurs view who thinks that the business investments can be deducted from tax (over time). So a S007 or "big" Hasselblad should be more useful because they simply are capable of more. Please explain if this is completely false or far from reality (I mean the tax deduction) - I would like to understand this better.

 

I have an SL, but I am realistic enough to know that in 2-3 years latest, 50MP or more will be a common standard. Then both cameras will be uninteresting for technic fanboys. That's simply the way digital works.

(The photos will still be excellent, but this does not matter in a forum if there is anything "better" with a newer sensor).

 

I agree with what you have said about Ming Thein. He admits the close relationship with Hasselblad, but such relationships really taint any review process. And although the X1D is in some important ways unproven--it's autofocus in particular--it is in other ways quite proven--it's sensor's performance in particular. I also think that another important characterstic that the X1D shares with the SL is that both are EVF cameras (I actually prefer this term to mirrorless). Some people, myself included, prefer EVF cameras and enjoy what the EVF brings to the shooting experience. I think that means that in the current market, if you want a high end EVF camera you have two choices: Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D. They are so different on so many fronts, however, the differences are likely to guide the choice more than anything else. I know it did for me. The SL is a great camera, but the X1D fits what I shoot better, so I pre-ordered it. I still may change my mind and cancel my pre-order and get an SL (if the unproven aspects of the X1D prove to be problematic), but if the X1D doesn't have any major glitches I am very happy that such a camera was made.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Steve Spencer

[Peter H]

...............................

Back to the camera topic: X1D is unproven and for an amateur very expensive. SL is also very expensive. That's the most they have in common.

The SL is finally a camera to continue using R lenses with a decent digital camera. The X1D has nothing to do with that - so no comparison.

 

.........................

 

 

That analysis does a disservice to both cameras.

 

The SL is more than just a digital body for R lenses. There's almost no limit to the types of photography it can be used for except some very specialist things that are outside any comparison of the type of cameras in question. 

 

The X1D will have more limitations because it will have fewer lenses that will work with it, and it's AF may well be less rapid, but there will probably be some things it does better than the SL. And some less well of course. The best way to find out for sure is to try them both and compare them.

 

So making a comparison to find out which suits you better is perfectly sensible. 

[screwmount]

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I think, one will have to have both in order to be really happy!

[EoinC]

...For a professional the price should not matter at all...

Assuming you are talking about self-employed professionals without limitless access to capital funding, price is a major consideration.

[DezFoto]

For a professional the price should not matter at all - at least this is an amateurs view who thinks that the business investments can be deducted from tax (over time). So a S007 or "big" Hasselblad should be more useful because they simply are capable of more. Please explain if this is completely false or far from reality (I mean the tax deduction) - I would like to understand this better.

 

 

 

As with any business, you never invest large sums of money in equipment that will not somehow increase your revenue. Price is actually far more important to a professional who's trying to stay in the black, than an amateur who's income is generated elsewhere. Buying an expensive camera will not increase your revenue accordingly, and a long-term tax write off doesn't really help mitigate dropping $20+k on a camera in one fiscal year, especially when you have rent to pay on a studio, bills to keep the light on, staff expenses for accounting and your assistant, etc.  Unless you are working with an experienced art director (who sometimes knows cameras and lights), the client rarely has any understanding of the quality of equipment you're using and as long as they have the impression you're using something better than what they own, they're comfy in the feeling that you are using "professional tools". The camera you are using will very rarely gain or lose clients for you, and if an art director does request medium format (which happens), you can always rent a camera and lenses (which is what I do). 

[Jeff S]

As I take time to assess the SL and X1D systems, I was troubled by a recent comment on the LensRentals site that spoke to reliability problems with Hasselblad lenses.  

 

Specifically, Roger Cicala wrote in praise of the Pentax 645Z (citing it as a top ten favorite)...."A year from now I might be putting the Hasselblad X1D in place of it, but not until I see if Hasselblad has begun to solve their lens problems."

 

I wasn't aware of Hasselblad lens issues, so I emailed the site and got a response from a staff member who replied that when they had the H4D and lenses to rent, "the zooms broke frequently and the primes were only marginally better", and the turnaround times from Denmark were unacceptably long, so they discontinued the gear.  He mentioned AF motor issues as one example.  Despite this, they intend to rent the X1D and are taking pre-orders.

 

Being well aware of AF motor (and other) issues associated with the S system (see separate threads in the S forum), I'm hoping that these issues are already addressed with the SL.  So far, so good, it seems.  I hoped, too, that the X1D will provide another reliable alternative to compare.

 

Has anyone here personally experienced problems (or know about issues) with Hasselblad lenses (or bodies)?   

 

Jeff

 

 

[DezFoto]

Has anyone here personally experienced problems (or know about issues) with Hasselblad lenses (or bodies)?   

 

MF bodies from all makes will require more maintenance than 35mm bodies, just the nature of the beast I'm afraid. I haven't had any issues with my HC lenses at all and I've beat the crap out of my 50-110mm zoom. Still AF's fine and and the shutter works perfectly. 

 

That being said, rental units tend to see a lot more action and abuse than equipment owned by an individual. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by DezFoto

[sortvitt]

As I take time to assess the SL and X1D systems, I was troubled by a recent comment on the LensRentals site that spoke to reliability problems with Hasselblad lenses.

 

Specifically, Roger Cicala wrote in praise of the Pentax 645Z (citing it as a top ten favorite)...."A year from now I might be putting the Hasselblad X1D in place of it, but not until I see if Hasselblad has begun to solve their lens problems."

 

I wasn't aware of Hasselblad lens issues, so I emailed the site and got a response from a staff member who replied that when they had the H4D and lenses to rent, "the zooms broke frequently and the primes were only marginally better", and the turnaround times from Denmark were unacceptably long, so they discontinued the gear. He mentioned AF motor issues as one example. Despite this, they intend to rent the X1D and are taking pre-orders.

 

Being well aware of AF motor (and other) issues associated with the S system (see separate threads in the S forum), I'm hoping that these issues are already addressed with the SL. So far, so good, it seems. I hoped, too, that the X1D will provide another reliable alternative to compare.

 

Has anyone here personally experienced problems (or know about issues) with Hasselblad lenses (or bodies)?

 

Jeff

I have the H5D-50 with three HC lenses used on both the H and S007. Never had any issues with any of the Hasselblad gear - body or lenses. I'm not aware of any quality issues. And Denmark? I would have thought H equipment was repaired in Sweden.

[DezFoto]

Denmark would be Phase One

[mjh]

And Denmark? I would have thought H equipment was repaired in Sweden.

Well, there is Hasselblad in Copenhagen (formerly Imacon). They don’t manufacture or repair H system lenses, but having said that, neither does Hasselblad in Gothenburg/Sweden. It may not really matter whether you send your stuff to Sweden or Denmark.

[sector99]

One decides to purchase a company and it's product ecosystem and the top of the decision list ought to include company stability–including especially, service.

 

SONY has run into mirrorless service issues to the degree that leading overseas selling pros have loudly sworn them off.

 

Between Hasselblad and Leica, the latter is far better established today with a broad spectrum of revenue generating optics product lines coupled with a network of competent service centers.

 

While the idea of low MF noise/high tonal range is appealing, the 35mm reality is fast, high MTF quality modern 35mm lenses illuminating an optimized 24MP sensor deliver good signal at & below ISO 6400. Pros generally crave LOWER ISO (<100), so the apparent MF sensor size/noise advantage may be overblown between the SL and X1D. In any event today, it's a theoretical D1X advantage. We have also the coming PHOTOKINA Fujifilm probable MF release (2017 delivery) that tends to undermine the promise of the X1D.

 

I like MT as the leading producing/teaching photog commentator but he, like all pros is under a steady income stressor and has formally divorced from the "smallness" of the 35mm sensor. Hence, his X1D/SL conditioning views should be carefully weighed.

 

As commercial as Ken Rockwell is, he's dead right when he opines that the "Viewfinder is 90% of the camera". He's in love with the M3/Summilux-Summicron 50 configuration for that reason. There the Leica SL and its stellar low-latency time viewfinder wins over competition head and shoulders.

 

Add to this benefit the new NOVOFLEX/CANON EF/SL adapter permits AF-S and data transfer with the just released EF 35f/1.4 L m2 lens utilizing a blue spectrum viscous fluid element with several ED components that effectively eliminate LaCA. Rockwell shows impressive examples of this feature. Purple fringing is significantly diminished as an imaging defect just when digital MF thought they had an upper sensor hand.

 

IMO the deciding feature in favor of the SL today and into the near future is the "30 CANON AF lenses" that have now been brought into the Leica SL AF ecosystem. This also includes Zeiss ZE mf lenses of very high performance–they also can be de-clicked for video (Duclos).

 

SONY had this market on a silver platter and chose instead to milk it with several Apple iPad-like planned obsolescence offerings instead of a single full-featured mirrorless product. In this respect, SONY took the avenue of exploitation rather than brand establishment. Even today, SONY has a disjointed lens family. Let's not mention the mystery of the A99 successor–if there is to be one.

 

Finally, we can observe that financial giant, Blackrock has a clear Leica presence at the right hand of Dr. Andreas Kaufmann to provide whatever liquidity is needed for Leica to grow more competitive into the digital future.

[Jeff S]

MF bodies from all makes will require more maintenance than 35mm bodies, just the nature of the beast I'm afraid. I haven't had any issues with my HC lenses at all and I've beat the crap out of my 50-110mm zoom. Still AF's fine and and the shutter works perfectly. 

 

That being said, rental units tend to see a lot more action and abuse than equipment owned by an individual. 

 

LensRentals routinely does their own repairs and fully expects them (for ALL brands) given their business model.  If you follow their site, they will tear down expensive gear, as well as adjust it whenever possible with their own sophisticated testing and equipment.  

 

The staff member responded to me by writing that the Hasselblad H4D and lenses (zooms and primes) broke down far more frequently than other gear, and that the turnaround time to Denmark was several months (if it's Sweden, he goofed).

 

As noted, however, they are going to carry the X1D system, so that experience will be of more interest to me.

 

Jeff

Edited July 29, 2016 by Jeff S

[Peter H]

.......................

 

Finally, we can observe that financial giant, Blackrock has a clear Leica presence at the right hand of Dr. Andreas Kaufmann to provide whatever liquidity is needed for Leica to grow more competitive into the digital future.

 

 

Do you know this or is it speculation? I'd be very pleasantly surprised to learn that Blackstone was prepared to provide whatever cash Leica might need to develop its products on terms that wouldn't be available elsewhere.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Peter H

[sector99]

Apologies on the typo. It is BLACKSTONE not Blackrock:

 

http://pdnpulse.pdnonline.com/2011/10/leica-sells-44-stake-to-private-equity-firm-blackstone.html

 

With multi-billion Dollar Blackstone as a Leica investor/supporter it's a distinction without a difference.

[sector99]

Here's a bit more background on the Blackrock/Blackstone ties and financial DNA linkages. At a minimum, Leica has the strongest friends a firm can obtain:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackRock

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Steve Spencer]

One decides to purchase a company and it's product ecosystem and the top of the decision list ought to include company stability–including especially, service.

 

SONY has run into mirrorless service issues to the degree that leading overseas selling pros have loudly sworn them off.

 

Between Hasselblad and Leica, the latter is far better established today with a broad spectrum of revenue generating optics product lines coupled with a network of competent service centers.

 

While the idea of low MF noise/high tonal range is appealing, the 35mm reality is fast, high MTF quality modern 35mm lenses illuminating an optimized 24MP sensor deliver good signal at & below ISO 6400. Pros generally crave LOWER ISO (<100), so the apparent MF sensor size/noise advantage may be overblown between the SL and X1D. In any event today, it's a theoretical D1X advantage. We have also the coming PHOTOKINA Fujifilm probable MF release (2017 delivery) that tends to undermine the promise of the X1D.

 

I like MT as the leading producing/teaching photog commentator but he, like all pros is under a steady income stressor and has formally divorced from the "smallness" of the 35mm sensor. Hence, his X1D/SL conditioning views should be carefully weighed.

 

As commercial as Ken Rockwell is, he's dead right when he opines that the "Viewfinder is 90% of the camera". He's in love with the M3/Summilux-Summicron 50 configuration for that reason. There the Leica SL and its stellar low-latency time viewfinder wins over competition head and shoulders.

 

Add to this benefit the new NOVOFLEX/CANON EF/SL adapter permits AF-S and data transfer with the just released EF 35f/1.4 L m2 lens utilizing a blue spectrum viscous fluid element with several ED components that effectively eliminate LaCA. Rockwell shows impressive examples of this feature. Purple fringing is significantly diminished as an imaging defect just when digital MF thought they had an upper sensor hand.

 

IMO the deciding feature in favor of the SL today and into the near future is the "30 CANON AF lenses" that have now been brought into the Leica SL AF ecosystem. This also includes Zeiss ZE mf lenses of very high performance–they also can be de-clicked for video (Duclos).

 

SONY had this market on a silver platter and chose instead to milk it with several Apple iPad-like planned obsolescence offerings instead of a single full-featured mirrorless product. In this respect, SONY took the avenue of exploitation rather than brand establishment. Even today, SONY has a disjointed lens family. Let's not mention the mystery of the A99 successor–if there is to be one.

 

Finally, we can observe that financial giant, Blackrock has a clear Leica presence at the right hand of Dr. Andreas Kaufmann to provide whatever liquidity is needed for Leica to grow more competitive into the digital future.

 

ZE lenses cannot be ceclicked for video. The ZE lenses do not have an aperture ring and the aperture is controlled by the camera.The similar ZF lenses can be de-clicked, but they could be used with a simple Nikon F adapter and wouldn't require the AF adapter.