Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

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So, I don't think your test shows what you assume it does, at least if you produce the same size print.

¨My¨ test does indeed show what I said it will. Dynamic range is not related to print size. It is not related to sensor size, either.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I'm struggling with this same dilemma right now, I was looking at selling all my Nikon gear and getting and SL for set stills but if the X1D is as quiet as it should be with it's leaf shutter lenses and lack of mirror, it could be a viable option. It would be really nice to be able to shoot without a blimp while they're rolling sound and 1/2000 flash sync can be incredibly useful when you're shooting strobes but have no control over the ambient lighting. The ability to use my current H lenses via adaptor is also very appealing. 

 

I really wish Leica had released the SL as a leaf shutter system.  

 

I don't think the leaf shutters in the blad are silent. What you need is a fully electronic shutter like the Fujifilm XPro2 or Sony A7S/R2. The SL does have a silent shutter but only at the highest shutter speed. You could press Leica to upgrade this to a full silent electronic shutter at all speeds. I'd love this feature in the SL. Using the SL's ISO 50 I haven't found a 1/250th sync for studio strobes a real issue but that's for my uses. YMMV.

 

The flash sync is definitely attractive and if you have the H lenses, even better. As long as the adaptor doesn't cost as much as the camera.

 

Why is it that Leica's S lenses with a CS only sync to 1/500th on the S2 and 1/1000th on the S007?

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

(bolded) I disagree on that. I had a Sony A7 and the Leica M-P, M-D, and SL outperform it handily in my experience, and with the same "old" lenses. That's why I sold the A7. 

 

Since I prefer manual focus and use mostly manual-focus-only lenses, the speed of PDAF and CDAF aren't very important to me (what I have is good enough already). I've yet to find my photos were lacking in resolution since the better 6 Mpixel and above cameras came available in the 2006-2008 time frame; 24 Mpixel is luxuriously more resolution than I really need. 50 Mpixel in the X1D is mind-blowing. 

 

Probably more to do with the lenses and micro lenses on the sensor than the actual bare sensor performance. The A7 series are a bit better than the SL. The A7R2 better again. But they still don't look like a Leica sensor, especially with a Leica lens. I know my A7R2 is technically better than my SL. But I still prefer the output of the SL sensor most (but not all) of the time.

 

Gordon

[jankap]

Sorry, but this happens not to be the case.

 

Perform this simple test. Take a digital camera with a removable lens. Take a picture of anything at all. Remove the lens. Cover half of the sensor with a black piece of paper. Attach the lens. Take the same picture again.

 

The dynamic range of the of the sensor does not change. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the area of the sensor. It's the ratio between the brightest and the darkest value it can detect. 

 

The dynamic range usually will be larger for the more modern sensor. When the sensor technology, the signal processor, the filters and so on are the same, the dynamic range will be larger for the larger pixel cell. The dynamic range will not be larger when there are more cells of the same size. It won't be smaller, either.

 

See Jim Kasson´s blog of the 3. July 2016.

Jan

[Steve Spencer]

¨My¨ test does indeed show what I said it will. Dynamic range is not related to print size. It is not related to sensor size, either.

 

We can go around and around about this but if you looks at measurements of dynamic range it is related to sensor size. Does the S have more dynamic range than the SL? The answer is that that when people measure dynamic range it does. They have the same sized pixels and yet the S has more dynamic range. Does the Nikon D800 have more dynamic range than the D7100? They have similar sized pixels and yet the D800 (or 810) has greater dynamic range. You can do the same comparison with every manufacturer. If you compare cameras with the same sized pixels from the same generation the camera with the larger sensor has greater dynamic range.

 

Perhaps you mean something different by dynamic range than the people who have developed measures of it, but the measures of dynamic range explicitly include print size as a part of the formula to measure it. DXOmark even reports the measurement two ways with either as "print" or "screen" as an option you select and "print" is the measurement that I am talking about. The screen measurement assumes you are looking at the image at full resolution on the screen. The link I provided only considers dynamic range taking print size into account. Whether you agree with the print size or the screen size way of measuring dynamic range there is no question that taking print size into account changes the measurement. So, yes dynamic range is related to print size.

 

Why is that? Because the floor for dynamic range is related to acceptable noise, however you define that. And there is no question that noise is related to print size. So, if you want to maintain that print size is unrelated to dynamic range you will have to come up with some way to characterize the floor for dynamic range without discussing noise and so far no one has done that. All the descriptions now discuss the floor for dynamic range in relation to noise and that means that dynamic range is related to print size.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Steve Spencer

[Steve Spencer]

I don't think the leaf shutters in the blad are silent. What you need is a fully electronic shutter like the Fujifilm XPro2 or Sony A7S/R2. The SL does have a silent shutter but only at the highest shutter speed. You could press Leica to upgrade this to a full silent electronic shutter at all speeds. I'd love this feature in the SL. Using the SL's ISO 50 I haven't found a 1/250th sync for studio strobes a real issue but that's for my uses. YMMV.

 

The flash sync is definitely attractive and if you have the H lenses, even better. As long as the adaptor doesn't cost as much as the camera.

 

Why is it that Leica's S lenses with a CS only sync to 1/500th on the S2 and 1/1000th on the S007?

 

Gordon

The adapter is a pretty reasonable $350. It is available for pre order at B & H. I have already pre-ordered it.

[ramarren]

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Probably more to do with the lenses and micro lenses on the sensor than the actual bare sensor performance. The A7 series are a bit better than the SL. The A7R2 better again. But they still don't look like a Leica sensor, especially with a Leica lens. I know my A7R2 is technically better than my SL. But I still prefer the output of the SL sensor most (but not all) of the time.

 

Gordon

 

 

Basing comments on "measured sensor performance" and not on actual photographic quality is something I see happening all over the net photo forums. Makes no sense to me, seems counter-productive. It's what I see in the photographs that counts, not how my sensor does on a test rig.

 

I see stunningly good results out of the SL, M-P, and M-D that I never saw out of the Sony A7 I had. 

[ramarren]

I don't think the leaf shutters in the blad are silent. What you need is a fully electronic shutter like the Fujifilm XPro2 or Sony A7S/R2. The SL does have a silent shutter but only at the highest shutter speed. You could press Leica to upgrade this to a full silent electronic shutter at all speeds. I'd love this feature in the SL. Using the SL's ISO 50 I haven't found a 1/250th sync for studio strobes a real issue but that's for my uses. YMMV.

 

The flash sync is definitely attractive and if you have the H lenses, even better. As long as the adaptor doesn't cost as much as the camera.

 

Why is it that Leica's S lenses with a CS only sync to 1/500th on the S2 and 1/1000th on the S007?

 

I imagine it would be due to tighter regulation of the two shutters' interaction on the later S body, improved hardware limits, etc. 

[DezFoto]

The recording that someone posted of the X1D shutter sound reminded me of the sound of the Leica SL. I don't believe it is much quieter or louder; they seemed quite comparable. 

 

The SL has a very refined shutter, very quiet for a focal plane shutter. Utterly different from previous FP cameras I've had. 

https://youtu.be/3NY3bFdGQKk?list=PLFe00UU2hH3AxhBFp_zog_zwgocztsPyj

 

Still far too loud for set without a blimp

[DezFoto]

I don't think the leaf shutters in the blad are silent. What you need is a fully electronic shutter like the Fujifilm XPro2 or Sony A7S/R2. The SL does have a silent shutter but only at the highest shutter speed. You could press Leica to upgrade this to a full silent electronic shutter at all speeds. I'd love this feature in the SL. Using the SL's ISO 50 I haven't found a 1/250th sync for studio strobes a real issue but that's for my uses. YMMV.

 

The flash sync is definitely attractive and if you have the H lenses, even better. As long as the adaptor doesn't cost as much as the camera.

 

Why is it that Leica's S lenses with a CS only sync to 1/500th on the S2 and 1/1000th on the S007?

 

Gordon

 

I should test the my Hassy in mirror-up mode to see how loud the lens shutter is...

 

The faster flash sync really only comes into it's own if you're shooting outside or in a location where you can't turn off the house lights. If you're just in your own studio, you'd likely never need it. 

 

Not sure why the same lens would have two different flash sync speeds on the S2 and S type 007...

[ramarren]

I went to the X1D road show demo in Palo Alto during my lunch break today, and handled two prototypes (both early functioning hardware and near final hardware) with the 45 and 90 mm lenses. Many details of the firmware were not yet solidified in either of these prototypes, but there was enough to get a sense of the camera. My impressions:

- very solid, well-balanced feel and balance with both lenses

- button placements are excellent

- shutter sound is solid, light and crisp, similar volume level to my SL as a first impression. Very restrained overall, but probably not quiet enough for set work without a blimp. (I didn't have the two cameras with me to do a side-by-side comparison.)

- EVF is very good; I found it easy to manually focus either lens even without magnification (I didn't find the control for that, if it was implemented). This also says that the lenses are contrasty and clean-imaging wide open.

- at least one of the tech reps said that the X1D supports wired tethering as well as wireless control. This means a wired remote could be made using the USB port; there is no separate port for a wired remote. No wired remote exists at present; whether they make one will depend upon customer demand I imagine. Wireless remote operation will be available on delivery.

- AF seemed fine on speed and accuracy to me, but given how early the fw in both of these prototypes is and how little I use AF there's little else credible I could say about it.

- We talked a little bit about future lenses. The 30mm we've all heard about was mentioned, what to follow that depends (most likely) on what customer feedback highlights.

- The touch screen control seems pretty easy to learn and reasonably quick in use.

My overall impression is that this is a camera that will do Hasselblad very well and be very appealing to a broad audience of users. It's not a replacement for my SL, for which I have a substantial lens portfolio, or for the M given its smaller size/weight/etc. But presuming that the ultra-wide lens I would like is produced, I would have no reservations about owning/using one (other than being able to afford it, of course). The design, feel, and balance of the camera as a package is outstanding. I can take it on faith at this point that the sensor is excellent and the lenses' quality is par for their price.

The local store sales contact said he expects production demo units to arrive within a few weeks, when I'll be able to experiment with it on a longer basis and take some exposures home to work with.

[Jeff S]

Thanks for the summary...I may go to a demo tomorrow.....if not, wait for a production model.

 

Just curious, did they let you take the camera outside to check EVF in bright sun, or just play around inside?  About how many folks were there, and how much time did you get with the camera?   

 

Jeff

[Peter Walker]

Maybe we should be wondering about the L16 Vs Every-Other-Camera-Ever-Made:

 

https://us.light.co/products/the-light-l16-camera

 

This device / software package, and its variants and derivates, could change photography as much as the advent of digital cameras. Photography will shift from technical adjustment of light capturing controls to communicating your intent to the intelligent software...

 

 

 

Regards

Peter

http://www.peterwalker.com

[sillbeers15]

So as there are lots of interest for many of us including myself to explore the X1D to determine if it were going to be a alternative or to compliment the SL. They both seem to have similar pixel size which should translate to similar dynamic range and ISO range. Which I think the current SL package offers allot already.

 

The X1D would be better for larger prints and crop factor as it has a larger sensor size (in terms of pixel count comparing to SL with both having similar pixel sizes). So by the same token, for the X1D to be as versatile as the SL in the DSLR application, it will need a much faster processor, bulkier and heavier glass if it were to make zooms to cover the 24mm to 280mm requirement than the SL with the assumption that the HCD glass optical resolution is as good as Leica....hum this would limit the usefulness of the x1D being compact (as a camera body) in the first place.

 

For me, X1D as an alternative is out as I see limited application in comparison. However I can imagine bringing along the X1D with a wide angle lens ( wait until a 18-21mm wide becomes available) strictly for Landscape photography application side by side with my SL. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Maybe we should be wondering about the L16 Vs Every-Other-Camera-Ever-Made:

 

https://us.light.co/products/the-light-l16-camera

 

This device / software package, and its variants and derivates, could change photography as much as the advent of digital cameras. Photography will shift from technical adjustment of light capturing controls to communicating your intent to the intelligent software...

 

 

 

Regards

Peter

http://www.peterwalker.com

 

 

Personally, a camera like that would kill photography for me. I like innovation and progress but I also like the process of photography. Balancing ISO's, Apertures and shutter speeds to get the best balance. Being challenged to get it right in camera. This is the fun bit of photography. I can't think of anything I want to do less than set my DOF looking at a computer screen.

 

Gordon

[ramarren]

Thanks for the summary...I may go to a demo tomorrow.....if not, wait for a production model.

 

Just curious, did they let you take the camera outside to check EVF in bright sun, or just play around inside?  About how many folks were there, and how much time did you get with the camera?   

 

Jeff

 

 

This demo was held in a training room so no windows and no ability to go outside. 

 

I would say the EVF in terms of responsiveness is between the SL and my Olympus E-M1, with this prerelease fw, which are two and one notch better than what the Sony A7 had. (Of course, I couldn't see the adaptive qualities, which is where the Oly shines; and I'm loathe to judge until release fw anyway.) I don't think I'll have any issues with it were I to buy one. 

 

There was a good crowd flowing through the room. I stayed about a half hour, and had one camera or the other in my hands for about twenty minutes. I traded off with others several times. 

 

I'll  write some things to the store contact to transfer to the H reps, as they were looking for feedback. In particular, I liked the older prototype's body covering more than the later one. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

So as there are lots of interest for many of us including myself to explore the X1D to determine if it were going to be a alternative or to compliment the SL. They both seem to have similar pixel size which should translate to similar dynamic range and ISO range. Which I think the current SL package offers allot already.

 

 

How many times does this need to come up? They don't have similar dynamic range. This Sony sensor is already available in at least three current cameras and it's a fact that this 50MP mini MF sensor has noticeably more dynamic range and high ISO performance than the SL (not that sensor performance should be even close to the only perimeter that a camera is judged by). Even cropping the Sony sensor to 36x24mm shows that it has more DR and a lower noise floor than the sensor in the SL, and almost no banding. Hundreds of files from this sensor are available on-line. There's test data on DXO (which I agree is to be taken with a grain of salt) and other sites for this exact sensor.

 

I do agree that the SL sensor is already fabulous and better with firmware 2.0. But there's no need to speculate on a known quantity. Just go look it up now. Nor is there any reason to feel the SlLis any less of a camera because a couple of sensors out perform it in DR and noise. After all you can't put any wide T/S lenses on the new 'blad yet. You can't get a 1/16000 shutter speed. the Sl stands as a fine system in it's own right.

 

Gordon

[Peter Walker]

Personally, a camera like that would kill photography for me. I like innovation and progress but I also like the process of photography. Balancing ISO's, Apertures and shutter speeds to get the best balance. Being challenged to get it right in camera. This is the fun bit of photography. I can't think of anything I want to do less than set my DOF looking at a computer screen.

 

Gordon

 

 

Well, us old farts can probably still keep shooting the old way until they plant us 6 feet under.

 

But I can imagine a scenario in the next few years when a photographer speaks to a "smart camera" and says "get me some images of that xxxxxx over there from all angles". The smart camera flies around the subject and transmits back a stream of hi-res images with an broad range of angles, perspectives and DOFs.  The photographer then builds the image that he has envisioned in a 3D virtual reality computer system.  All the technologies to do this are here now - just need to integrate and package them.

 

Regards

Peter 

[ramarren]

Maybe we should be wondering about the L16 Vs Every-Other-Camera-Ever-Made:

 

https://us.light.co/products/the-light-l16-camera

 

This device / software package, and its variants and derivates, could change photography as much as the advent of digital cameras. Photography will shift from technical adjustment of light capturing controls to communicating your intent to the intelligent software...

 

I'm an early adopter on the Light L16. They've just today sent an email to tell that I won't take delivery until early 2017. Doing hardware takes lots of time.  

 

No matter.. The concept is interesting and I'm eager to see what can be done with it. There is plenty of room in photography for all kinds of equipment, just like the "X1D vs SL" meme of this thread implies. We're only limited by our imaginations. 

Edited July 7, 2016 by ramarren

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[Guest satrycon]

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