JBond Posted June 4, 2016 Share #21 Posted June 4, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) jbond, I have deleted your gratuitously rude post directed at one of our female members. Some gestures to male members may be tolerable but IMO extra courtesy is required when directed at ladies. Because the lady concerned was offended, I have taken action. Please think carefully next time before hitting the send button and consider the consequence it can deliver. erl my rude post was a response and consequence of two rude posts that said lady had directed at me (which by the way you have taken no action against). I am not quite sure about your reasoning that some gestures may be tolerated when directed to male members but not to female ones? What happened to gender equality? I suppose as a moderator it is your responsibility to take action (and apologies for adding to your workload) but in the interest of impartiality I think you should take equal action on both sides. After all one who provokes an attack is just as guilty as one who attacks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 4, 2016 Posted June 4, 2016 Hi JBond, Take a look here The M-D would be an absolute triumph if it didn't cost so much.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
JBond Posted June 4, 2016 Share #22 Posted June 4, 2016 Think we got a good laugh at this. People who come on the forum, don't own a single piece of Leica equipment. I don't mind people asking questions who don't have equipment yet. But then to turn around and act like they know what they are talking about.....a good belly laugh. Sorry though he was embarrassed. My fault. I will add though, many people tried to help him understand what these cameras were, then he decided on a Q, then decided the Q was overpriced and refused to accept it was due to exchange issues and not Leica ripping him off, bashing Leica and pricing. I had enough of his questions at that juncture. I think you are distorting the truth to suit your argument. People did indeed help me and I expressed my grattitude for their help. Yes, I did question the fact that within a few months the price of the Q has gone up by £330 and if you are experienced enough in forums you will know that this is often a "newcommer syndrome" expecially when talking about expensive items. Some people replied that the price increase could be linked at the exchange rates to which I replied that the M has actually gone down in price so surely can't be that reason. At that point you questioned how serious I was about buying a Leica and further you condescendingly told me "When you get a Leica feel free to come here with more questions". Post 59 in the following link http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/260447-m240-m9p-or-q/page-3 And if you look at post 60 you will notice that it's not just me being oversensitive. And yet you continue with condescending responses. Do not flatter yourself by thinking that I was embarrased. There's a saying which goes "if you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted June 4, 2016 Share #23 Posted June 4, 2016 I think you are distorting the truth to suit your argument. People did indeed help me and I expressed my grattitude for their help. Yes, I did question the fact that within a few months the price of the Q has gone up by £330 and if you are experienced enough in forums you will know that this is often a "newcommer syndrome" expecially when talking about expensive items. Some people replied that the price increase could be linked at the exchange rates to which I replied that the M has actually gone down in price so surely can't be that reason. At that point you questioned how serious I was about buying a Leica and further you condescendingly told me "When you get a Leica feel free to come here with more questions". Post 59 in the following link http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/260447-m240-m9p-or-q/page-3 And if you look at post 60 you will notice that it's not just me being oversensitive. And yet you continue with condescending responses. Do not flatter yourself by thinking that I was embarrased. There's a saying which goes "if you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all". Well, then why don't you follow your own advice on your last sentence then. I, as were many others, were most patient with you, and kind. There was no wrong doing on my part. Most people up here have many years of experience and knowledge, and are helpful. But it did appear by the end of the discussion you really weren't serious and decided not to buy due to costs, either an M or a Q. Why you feel like hanging around just to blab and pretend to know anything about Leica now is a wonder. I just found it humorous, and actually truly sorry you were so embarrassed I pointed you out, that you had to write a now thankfully deleted vulgar response. Oh well. Sorry! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 4, 2016 Share #24 Posted June 4, 2016 OK, everybody has had his/her say. No more discussion on the whys and wherefores and back on the topic please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted June 4, 2016 Share #25 Posted June 4, 2016 My only disappointment in the M-D is the fact that they did not go with a rewind lever. Half measures............ It is a bold move on Leica's part; as far as I am concerned it is priced appropriately, 20% lower than a new 246 monochrome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 4, 2016 Share #26 Posted June 4, 2016 My only disappointment in the M-D is the fact that they did not go with a rewind lever. Half measures............ You give the game away there! It's supposed to be about function, not nostalgia, isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenf Posted June 4, 2016 Share #27 Posted June 4, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Now, if they could only have made the rewind lever eject the SD card... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted June 4, 2016 Share #28 Posted June 4, 2016 Well, like the ancient Leicas, it still has a bottom plate that must be removed. Wouldn't flimsy plastic hatches and clips be more convenient and in keeping with "modern?" Auto rewind is not about modern advancement, it is about LAZY. You guys have all probably opted for automatic transmissions in your cars too.......... When I last looked at the value of my 1978 Targa SC- the last of the breed to be untouched by sophisticated electronics- I just about fell over. True Spartans know the value of sophistication without complexity. And enjoy the challenges of inconvenience.......And laugh. Just kidding. P.S. I have waffled a bit, but the M-D will be my first new Leica. I bet the rest of the Luddite tribe would pretty much approve of a rewind lever on the M-D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Louis Marit Posted June 5, 2016 Share #29 Posted June 5, 2016 Actually, it's not the 262 minus a screen. If it was, there'd be a gaping hole in the camera. Someone had to draw the parts that make up a camera-without-a-screen. Tools have to be made to make a body-without-a-screen. Software has to be written to use the camera-without-the-screen without the screen. And on, and on. These all produce costs that have to be paid for before a single camera is even made. You divide those by the number of cameras you hope you'll be selling, and that number is bound to be kind of smallish. I think it's this that you might be missing. I think those tools and software costs were already accounted for with the fancy special edition stainless steel one designed by Audi..., Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted June 5, 2016 Share #30 Posted June 5, 2016 Er, the M-D isn't stainless steel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo63 Posted June 5, 2016 Share #31 Posted June 5, 2016 Er, the M-D isn't stainless steel. The M60 was though. Most of which could carry over to the M-D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danhefner Posted June 6, 2016 Share #32 Posted June 6, 2016 The M60 has had many detractors, which, from my admittedly limited exposure, seem to fall into generally three camps: (1) those who object to the concept of having a digital camera with no reviewing screen, (2) those who object to the cost of the thing, and (3) those who object to the particular physical package that is the M60. Clearly, as to (1) from its introduction of a production model (M-D), Leica have realized that there is, indeed, a market for people who like the concept of a very film-like experience with digital photography, including the joy/horror of only getting to see your images once your shooting ends (and possibly learning something from it so that next time, more shots will be good). That market may be small, but Leica may be onto something. The choice of approach is very personal, and I suspect it really will be impossible to arrive at any objective assessment of whether Leica's vision here is right or wrong. As with the Monochrom, however, Leica seems to be offering, via the M-D, a tool that some segment of the market will really like and want and use, and (importantly) that no competitor seems to offer. As to (2), well the M60 was priced to sell as a collectors' item, and at only 600 units released, it is. However, it also was paired with a very excellent Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH FLE, also in stainless steel including an "old school" vented round hood, also being 1 of 600 of a limited edition. The now-released "production" almost-same version of the camera, the M-D, sells (in round numbers) for $6000 and the production version of that same lens (in black) sells for $5000. The roughly $7000 difference for the kit is the collector's premium (or the cost of the infamous white gloves that come with the M60). As for the cost of the M-D itself, however, I suspect that few who are really into the concept of the "no-chimping" digital M would balk at the $600 price difference between it and the M (262). All new M cameras are expensive, prohibitively so for far too many people. I think that if someone is prepared to invest in a digital M, (s)he'll get whichever model most appeals to him/her, recognizing the basement price begins at $5400 (with no lens). I also suspect that few neophytes to Leica M photography will see the "wisdom" of the concept of the M-D, so those choosing the M-D may represent a more experienced, albeit smaller, market segment. But these are only uneducated conjectures. Griping about Leica's prices is old hat, in any case, and is easy criticism. I believe that the elevated cost of the M-D (relative to what might be expected, given its feature comparison with other M models) has a lot to do with a probably more limited production run for this product. The M-D is not simply a re-hash of the M60, and I think it is naive to think that all of the development cost for the M60 have been recouped. Obviously, much of the engineering must be the same, but the manufacturing and production, with different materials involved (hence likely different tooling), a different scale of production (M60 being a limited run, likely involving a very few dedicated employees, the M-D a production run probably involving a different set of personnel), and differences in mechanical elements are clear, and also are different vis-a-vis the other production M models, to some extent. As to (3), the new M-D is probably superior to the M60 in most practical aspects, although from a design aesthetic, my subjective opinion is that the M60 is superior. Firstly, the steel M60 is really heavy, especially coupled with its included lens (about 1.2 kg). It's even about 100g heavier with the leather half-case, which is essential to carry the thing around one's neck (since there are no strap lugs on the M60). That weight might not be a problem for many, but the M60's been criticized by some commenters for its heft nonetheless. The M-D + production Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH FLE should together weigh about 200-300 g less. Secondly, from pictures, it seems that the M-D includes the legacy lever to select different frame-line sets, which the M60 lacks. Many people find this a particularly nice feature, since it allows framing of a scene even with no lens mounted. Thirdly, the M-D (again from pictures) includes a thumb-wheel at the upper right side of the back for some type of function (I don't know what - possibly exposure compensation?). The M60 lacks this, and so lacks whatever function can be controlled by that wheel. Fourthly, the M60 lacks a threaded shutter release, and (I think) a control to delay the shutter (2 sec or 12 sec). Together, these omissions hamper some tripod use of the M60, and it seems, from pictures, that the M-D has both of these features. Lastly, the M-D has "normal" strap lugs for a neckstrap or wrist strap. While the lack of these make the M60 really pretty, it's just not that practical to omit them. For me, I think if Leica were to make the M-D into the next Monochrome, I'd jump on it. For color work, maybe, but the lack of a histogram is a lot to give up. Since the accents on the M-D body are silver (the hot-shoe, the function button and shutter-release, the bayonet release button), product-distinction would be very easily achieved if these were black. Who knows, but if Leica releases a Monochrom version of this M-D, I'd be very interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 6, 2016 Share #33 Posted June 6, 2016 I get the post, but for the last paragraph. A histogram is more important to have on the Monochrom as blown highlights are more of a problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted June 6, 2016 Share #34 Posted June 6, 2016 When I last looked at the value of my 1978 Targa SC- the last of the breed to be untouched by sophisticated electronics- I just about fell over. That SC thang has power brakes and CIS... true purists like me drive a 911... no power nuthin except what the carbs or MFI make... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 7, 2016 Share #35 Posted June 7, 2016 That SC thang has power brakes and CIS... true purists like me drive a 911... no power nuthin except what the carbs or MFI make... True purists walk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted June 7, 2016 Share #36 Posted June 7, 2016 True purists walk. You forgot the part about lugging around pin hole cameras on wooden tripods while they do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bedford Posted June 8, 2016 Share #37 Posted June 8, 2016 Anyone want to design a "nice looking" M 240 LCD blackout cover that has a little square cut out for the ISO setting?? (but seriously, I'm considering covering up my LCD) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted June 8, 2016 Share #38 Posted June 8, 2016 The M-D would be an absolute triumph if it didn't cost so much Come to think of it, that has been said about every digital M camera Leica has made so far - hasn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Louis Marit Posted June 8, 2016 Share #39 Posted June 8, 2016 Er, the M-D isn't stainless steel. I didn't say it was. The M60 was. We all Know the M-D is black. My point is, if you had actually read my post, is that the cost of the tools and dies used plus the development costs of firmware software etc have already been amortized due to development of the M 60 and therefore the price of the MD should be lower. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECohen Posted June 8, 2016 Share #40 Posted June 8, 2016 Come to think of it, that has been said about every digital M camera Leica has made so far - hasn't it? Honestly the high price controls my GAS....and I'm not kidding. I think it's funny how we ....or I, rationalize 6.5K for a camera body? and I really mean this ...its worth it! Of course you all know I mean it, I'm in good company Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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