mjh Posted July 17, 2016 Share #241 Posted July 17, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) 36*36 would indeed be a larger format but the circle enclosing 36*24 would not. Instead of throwing away pixels by absorbing them in black paint, fans of rectangles could set a menu option to discard them from the sensor. The sensor will always be rectangular or square, even if you crop a circular image. And a sensor capable of capturing a circular image enclosing 36 x 24 mm is a medium format sensor (43 x 43 mm). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 Hi mjh, Take a look here How many megapixels in the next M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Exodies Posted July 17, 2016 Share #242 Posted July 17, 2016 A circular sensor won't always be rectangular or square. It could be embedded in a hexagonal chip. Furthermore, the cells don't all have to be the same shape or size. Think of a penrose tiling. Get out of the box! Put some Barnak in it! The concept "medium format" shouldn't be a boundary to thinking how to get the most out of the M lenses we have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G3rald Posted July 17, 2016 Share #243 Posted July 17, 2016 I don't think the next M will have anything innovative. Maybe Leica needs to respond to the 'demand' for mega pixels but higher megapixels means hand holding shutter speed needs to increase and Leica have the challenging need to balance between MP and ISO improvement. If I need at least 1/100 shutter speed to stabilise handheld shots of a 50mm lens, that means the new M better have at least 2 stops improvement in sensor iso so consumer can see the benefit in lower light. The M will not have any built in stabilisation as Leica believes it will reduce IQ as evident with the Q where it is defaulted to off. There're a lot of other direction Leica can take with the new M. A high top shutter of 1/16000 like the SL. Electronic shutter. A "grasp" larger ovf. Thinner lighter chassis (not a possibility if the new lenses are any indication). I think the more important thing is a better high ISO capable sensor. 24mp is fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 17, 2016 Share #244 Posted July 17, 2016 A circular sensor won't always be rectangular or square. With sensor pixels arranged in rows and columns (and addressed/accessed that way), a rectangular design is inevitable. You can choose to ignore parts of the rectangular area but the underlying design is still a rectangular lattice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted July 17, 2016 Share #245 Posted July 17, 2016 Time for a shake-up in semiconductor circuit layout then. A concrete fab can do it: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/260659-how-many-megapixels-in-the-next-m/?do=findComment&comment=3080178'>More sharing options...
SonomaBear Posted July 17, 2016 Share #246 Posted July 17, 2016 I shot 6x6 for several decades... still do on rare and festive occasions. Bring on a 36mmx36mm !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 17, 2016 Share #247 Posted July 17, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... Maybe Leica needs to respond to the 'demand' for mega pixels but higher megapixels means hand holding shutter speed needs to increase and Leica have the challenging need to balance between MP and ISO improvement. If I need at least 1/100 shutter speed to stabilise handheld shots of a 50mm lens, that means the new M better have at least 2 stops improvement in sensor iso so consumer can see the benefit in lower light. The M will not have any built in stabilisation as Leica believes it will reduce IQ as evident with the Q where it is defaulted to off... Nice when reality lifts its head from time to time. Such a camera might take M lenses, but it wouldn't really share much with the M camera as we know it. The biggest proponent for more MP over thge last years has been PaulJ. He says he "needs" the resolution provided by more MP. In a recent post, he summarised it as primarily being a cropping issue (excuse me if I'm selectively misquoting you, Paul). Is this really the future on photohgraphy? And more critically M photography? You either can't get close enough or you don't have access to the longer focal length you want, so you snap and crop? That may be one idea of photography, but it doesn't accord with mine or what I belief the M camera is about. Technology provides us with so many amazing options, the attraction of Leica, as opposed to Sony, is that Leica has a very clear idea of what photography is, and the M camera is the clearest manifestation of that. The T camera provides a different approach in APS-C, the Q full frame, but a traditional fixed lens approach, the SL a carefully considered package built around a fantastic EVF and the S a medium format DSLR. Isn't the M camera's place in that line-up pretty clear? And it is the only one on the market. Leica's offerings look pretty complete to me. Why screw up a camera system which has come into its own after 40 years struggling in obscurity. I shot 6x6 for several decades... still do on rare and festive occasions. Bring on a 36mmx36mm !!! Buy a Hasselblad X1D-50c and crop to 33 x 33! I'm waiting for digital 6 x 6 ... Actually, that would probably be 300MP and cost $50,000! The X1D-50c does look very interesting. I'm assuming that the image circle of the XCD lenses won't be big enough for the 100c sensor (that's an open question). Imagine the size of AF lenses for a 6x6 sensor ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 18, 2016 Share #248 Posted July 18, 2016 He says he "needs" the resolution provided by more MP. In a recent post, he summarised it as primarily being a cropping issue (excuse me if I'm selectively misquoting you, Paul). Is this really the future on photohgraphy? And more critically M photography? You either can't get close enough or you don't have access to the longer focal length you want, so you snap and crop? Cropping is a small part of it. It's more about output. Printing technology has come on in leaps and bounds, and it's application over, say, just 10 years ago, is far wider. 8 meter prints are not uncommon (pic attached) These are the demands of a professional photographer, and once you have shot something it's, at times, a mystery to when, where and how pictures are going to be used and having the right spec file can mean an extra £20K+ in usage fees, you may otherwise miss out on. I can understand why you might think 24MP is plenty if you are mostly uploading pictures to the internet, but you may well be surprised at how many are using the M system in this professional context, despite low representation on this forum. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/260659-how-many-megapixels-in-the-next-m/?do=findComment&comment=3080455'>More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 18, 2016 Share #249 Posted July 18, 2016 Right, yes. Of course. 8 metre prints. The perfect output for an M user. Please excuse my scorn, Paul, but there is a Gulf between 8 metre prints and posting on the internet. Back in the real world, 24MP is manageable handheld, printing a metre across - plenty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2016 Share #250 Posted July 18, 2016 Cropping is a small part of it. It's more about output. Printing technology has come on in leaps and bounds, and it's application over, say, just 10 years ago, is far wider. 8 meter prints are not uncommon (pic attached) These are the demands of a professional photographer, and once you have shot something it's, at times, a mystery to when, where and how pictures are going to be used and having the right spec file can mean an extra £20K+ in usage fees, you may otherwise miss out on. I can understand why you might think 24MP is plenty if you are mostly uploading pictures to the internet, but you may well be surprised at how many are using the M system in this professional context, despite low representation on this forum. What professional would want to shoot 8 meter prints with a camera designed for handheld reportage, travel and street? Isn't professionalism about using the proper tools for the job? A medium format camera or larger appears to me to be more of a fitting tool. It is like me trying to use my dentist's drill to make a monumental sculpture. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/260659-how-many-megapixels-in-the-next-m/?do=findComment&comment=3080512'>More sharing options...
AndreasAM Posted July 18, 2016 Share #251 Posted July 18, 2016 .............................................................................................. Isn't professionalism about using the proper tools for the job? ....................................... It is like me trying to use my dentist's drill to make a monumental sculpture. 512px-The_giant_camera.jpg Jaap, It could also define the moment that you start as a professional artist and stop being a dentist? Definitions of what constitutes "being professional" are not carved in stone, I think....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 18, 2016 Share #252 Posted July 18, 2016 Right, yes. Of course. 8 metre prints. The perfect output for an M user. Please excuse my scorn, Paul, but there is a Gulf between 8 metre prints and posting on the internet. Back in the real world, 24MP is manageable handheld, printing a metre across - plenty. Sorry John you are wrong - Even a 1m print will show a clear difference between 24-50MP. A difference that can and does mean a lot in the business of photography and at a size that is far more commonly used than the 8m example I've given. While the example I have given is indeed extreme, it is indicative of the demands and surprises a professionals work is put under, the point being, if this was shot with a 50MP M it would be OK. The M is just the same as any camera. It's a light tight box - it is just as perfect as any camera for what I do and for many reasons it offers several things that other cameras just simply don't. There are a lot of people using this camera in the same way I do. What makes you suggest the only people using this camera, and the only people Leica are interested in, are amateurs who only posting to the internet and on this forum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2016 Share #253 Posted July 18, 2016 Jaap, It could also define the moment that you start as a professional artist and stop being a dentist? Definitions of what constitutes "being professional" are not carved in stone, I think....... Well, to my mind they are, professionalism is not defined by the discipline one is in IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 18, 2016 Share #254 Posted July 18, 2016 What professional would want to shoot 8 meter prints with a camera designed for handheld reportage, travel and street? Isn't professionalism about using the proper tools for the job? A medium format camera or larger appears to me to be more of a fitting tool. It is like me trying to use my dentist's drill to make a monumental sculpture. 512px-The_giant_camera.jpg This one. A 20 year professional working internationally for some of the biggest names in the business. Of corse, I use other cameras too. It's not like you intend some pictures to be printed 8m - but I will say again - these are the demands and surprises your work is put through. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2016 Share #255 Posted July 18, 2016 Sorry John you are wrong - Even a 1m print will show a clear difference between 24-50MP. A difference that can and does mean a lot in the business of photography and at a size that is far more commonly used than the 8m example I've given. While the example I have given is indeed extreme, it is indicative of the demands and surprises a professionals work is put under, the point being, if this was shot with a 50MP M it would be OK. The M is just the same as any camera. It's a light tight box - it is just as perfect as any camera for what I do and for many reasons it offers several things that other cameras just simply don't. There are a lot of people using this camera in the same way I do. What makes you suggest the only people using this camera, and the only people Leica are interested in, are amateurs who only posting to the internet and on this forum? The last assertion is quite incorrect, given the frequency of printing threads and posts on this forum. Nor do I think it was implied in the post you respond to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 18, 2016 Share #256 Posted July 18, 2016 Sorry John you are wrong - Even a 1m print will show a clear difference between 24-50MP. A difference that can and does mean a lot in the business of photography and at a size that is far more commonly used than the 8m example I've given. While the example I have given is indeed extreme, it is indicative of the demands and surprises a professionals work is put under, the point being, if this was shot with a 50MP M it would be OK.The M is just the same as any camera. It's a light tight box - it is just as perfect as any camera for what I do and for many reasons it offers several things that other cameras just simply don't. There are a lot of people using this camera in the same way I do. What makes you suggest the only people using this camera, and the only people Leica are interested in, are amateurs who only posting to the internet and on this forum? What makes you assume I only post on the internet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 18, 2016 Share #257 Posted July 18, 2016 What makes you assume I only post on the internet? "Please excuse my scorn, Paul, but there is a Gulf between 8 metre prints and posting on the internet." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 18, 2016 Share #258 Posted July 18, 2016 Sorry Paul J but M cameras have never been made for billboard photography. I don't mind if Leica makes a special model for that but i would be worried if they come to forget the core of M cameras i.e. IQ, portability and versatility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreasAM Posted July 18, 2016 Share #259 Posted July 18, 2016 Well, to my mind they are, professionalism is not defined by the discipline one is in IMO. Being professional in a discipline doesn't exclude using any tool, if one thinks it fits the purpose and gets the job done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 18, 2016 Share #260 Posted July 18, 2016 Actually, given my experience of two cameras of 36MP (both ditched), I wouldn't want a 50MP M camera. At 24MP, I can print as big as I like (certainly never saying to myself - Gee, I wish that image was taken with a 50MP sensor). I say this as a mere mortal of only, oh, 50 years practice taking and printing pictures. Why don't I want 50MP? Well, even with 36MP, getting a sharp shot handheld is horribly hit and miss. As Jaap says, this camera is primarily for handheld photography. It's light, compact and works best in the 28-90 range of focal lengths. Perfect with its compact lenses as a carry everywhere camera. I really don't want to piss about wondering if I'm going to get motion blur because the image is in the range 1/125-1/500, or whatever will be the problem area (and there will be one, if you've actually shot high MP cameras handheld), I don't want the complication of shutter slap, and I don't want to carry my tripod everywhere. But, hey - I'm only a mere amateur. But I won't patronise you, Paul, for your relative inexperience (with apologies to Ronald Reagan - not something I thought I would ever say), and I certainly won't be so rude as to say "you're wrong". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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