pop Posted June 22, 2016 Share #201 Posted June 22, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Please provide evidence of even twice 24 megapixels is a disadvantage with today's storage. The media for storing twice 24 megapixels is marginal, IMO, and does not have to be accounted for. The time to move, copy and save that amount of data is, however, not trivial. I had to move a number of images to the dropbox for a small project. As I don't know what they were going to use the images for, I sent the DNGs. In all, they occupied a mere 2GB. They took about six hours for uploading. I would have been faster if I had brought them by train. My former employer had someone calculate the "real" or "full" cost of live online storage. With the servers, the facilities to house them, the cost of the software and all the costs involved in running the whole installation they arrived at an unholy number. Well, it was a government outfit, but those numbers still weren't an order of magnitude above civilian levels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 Hi pop, Take a look here How many megapixels in the next M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted June 22, 2016 Share #202 Posted June 22, 2016 Processed 645Z (51MP) raw files can result in a single photo running to 3/4 GB and beyond. LR is awful handling these files with anything less than 16GB and really 32GB is pretty much where you need to be. These files fill up an SSDs in nothing flat, and you need SSDs for obvious reasons when transferring. Xfering them to backup takes forever. Forget about carry any under $2K laptop along to do any significant processing in the field. Is it all doable? Of course, but there is no doubt that the back end hardware investment increases significantly and any network operations take a lot more time. There is real cost here. It will be, of course, be just a few years until computer and network specifications will have caught up with - and surpassed- these niggles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted June 22, 2016 Share #203 Posted June 22, 2016 Perhaps, but I don't see the point, really. Better DR, wider effective ISO range (not just faster), better white balance and more reliable treatment with wides would interest me more. More data, not so much. More data is very similar to wider DR in one area - it allows you to do later what you could have done on the scene. Wider DR means you need to filter in software. Or you could put on a ND filter. I sometimes see in a photograph a detail which would make a great picture; with more data I can crop it out. If I had seen it in situ I could have gone in closer and shot it properly. I'll be right back with an example of the crop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted June 22, 2016 Share #204 Posted June 22, 2016 I know what you're thinking - the number of missed photographs is infinite - but to have one so close yet so far away due to lack of pixels... Here is a crop from a 21mm shot of the town Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Should I have asked her to do it again? Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Should I have asked her to do it again? ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/260659-how-many-megapixels-in-the-next-m/?do=findComment&comment=3065934'>More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted June 22, 2016 Share #205 Posted June 22, 2016 Sure, the cost of memory and storage is coming down all the time. That doesn't make it less irritating when you have to buy and fit new RAM or storage disks, just to deal with a change you don't want (of course you don't have to buy the next M with its 50mp, but you might want its other features). I am now looking at a new motherboard, because my current one has a 12GB RAM limit: 6GB was fine for M9 files processed in LR3, but 12 is getting a bit slow since I took our a Adobe CC subscription and started manipulating multilayered files in Photoshop from a M240. I suppose I ought to plan for more pixels, even if I don't need them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted June 22, 2016 Share #206 Posted June 22, 2016 For the pixelhunters, Hasselblad is about to release a new camera which should suit your needs. So now there is a choice, high mp mirrorless camera or rangefinder camera with fewer pixels but in a smaller package. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted June 22, 2016 Share #207 Posted June 22, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) It will be, of course, be just a few years until computer and network specifications will have caught up with - and surpassed- these niggles. There are plenty of large sample files available for playing around with. I suggest folks pull a few down and monkey with them in their current workflow to see whats its like and if they can put up with a few years of it. 36MB is certainly more manageable than 51MB, but I'd add that I'm less optimistic than you about Moore's law continuing to serve the style of machines that we need to do our work. The volumes are in pads and phones. The development path for workstations and power laptops is on the downslope. Witness Apple's track record in this space over the past two to three years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted June 23, 2016 Share #208 Posted June 23, 2016 Sure, the cost of memory and storage is coming down all the time. That doesn't make it less irritating when you have to buy and fit new RAM or storage disks, just to deal with a change you don't want (of course you don't have to buy the next M with its 50mp, but you might want its other features). I am now looking at a new motherboard, because my current one has a 12GB RAM limit: 6GB was fine for M9 files processed in LR3, but 12 is getting a bit slow since I took our a Adobe CC subscription and started manipulating multilayered files in Photoshop from a M240. I suppose I ought to plan for more pixels, even if I don't need them. A wise IT guy once said to me, "you can never buy too much memory, you can never have too much disk space, and you can never buy a processor too fast." The upgrade cycle may not seem inevitable, but in fact computer upgrades are only a question of when, not if. I had a MacPro that lasted 8 years because the components were upgradeable. You are lucky that you could replace your motherboard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted June 28, 2016 Share #209 Posted June 28, 2016 The next M sensor will likely be designed so it can be used without ND filter. That means low enough ISO and high enough shutter speed that even with the f/0.95 we stay within range. 50 ISO, 1/8000 shutter speed. The M 262 and M-D 262 are different sensors than then M240 because they don't have to support Live View. I hope the sensor will stay at 24MP, but I guess general market/reviewer demand makes Leica Camera AG consider more megapixels. They've resisted it in the Leica SL. I hope they choose image quality over megapixels, and even the current available computer power has plenty to do with chewing the 24MP files. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierovitch Posted June 28, 2016 Share #210 Posted June 28, 2016 I guess Leica can aspire to Fujifilm standards and technology but the sensors are technically good enough for purpose. Post processing has been a crutch for non optimal technology since the start of digital sensors but has developed into a personal taste option as sensors have improved. GPU and SSD performance will put more pressure on Adobe to optimise their code. Apple seem to have poached most of the imaging talent. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 28, 2016 Share #211 Posted June 28, 2016 [...] I'd add that I'm less optimistic than you about Moore's law continuing to serve the style of machines that we need to do our work. Consider that if digital imaging over-taxes our computers, and Moore's law does not keep up, then camera makers will eventually throttle down sensor output. It will balance out. We are still in the high side of GPU costs, so there is justification for optimism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted June 28, 2016 Share #212 Posted June 28, 2016 The next M sensor will likely be designed so it can be used without ND filter. That means low enough ISO and high enough shutter speed that even with the f/0.95 we stay within range. 50 ISO, 1/8000 shutter speed. The M 262 and M-D 262 are different sensors than then M240 because they don't have to support Live View. I hope the sensor will stay at 24MP, but I guess general market/reviewer demand makes Leica Camera AG consider more megapixels. They've resisted it in the Leica SL. I hope they choose image quality over megapixels, and even the current available computer power has plenty to do with chewing the 24MP files. Thorsten, even ISO 100 @ 1/8000th would be marvelous... going back beyond the future of the M8, . Are you accepting orders now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted June 28, 2016 Share #213 Posted June 28, 2016 <snip> Apple seem to have poached most of the imaging talent. Over 800 engineers work on the IPhone camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted July 13, 2016 Share #214 Posted July 13, 2016 Can I just say that IMHO the lens is more important then the sensor. The more I use different camera systems and lenses the more this belief is reinforced in me ... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 13, 2016 Share #215 Posted July 13, 2016 The next M sensor will likely be designed so it can be used without ND filter. That means low enough ISO and high enough shutter speed that even with the f/0.95 we stay within range. 50 ISO, 1/8000 shutter speed. The M 262 and M-D 262 are different sensors than then M240 because they don't have to support Live View. I hope the sensor will stay at 24MP, but I guess general market/reviewer demand makes Leica Camera AG consider more megapixels. They've resisted it in the Leica SL. I hope they choose image quality over megapixels, and even the current available computer power has plenty to do with chewing the 24MP files. Hey Thorsten, You know I think you're great but "I hope they choose image quality over megapixels" is a silly and incorrect thing to say when you can clearly have both. The more I read the Leica forum the more I come to the understanding that certain people already know the next M is 24MP... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted July 13, 2016 Share #216 Posted July 13, 2016 Hey Thorsten, You know I think you're great but "I hope they choose image quality over megapixels" is a silly and incorrect thing to say when you can clearly have both. The more I read the Leica forum the more I come to the understanding that certain people already know the next M is 24MP... You can be sure that, if there will be a new M this year, Thorsten, Jono, Michael and others have it already in hand Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted July 13, 2016 Share #217 Posted July 13, 2016 IMHO, nothing in the Leica MP world will change until you see the flagship S increaes its MP. What seldom seems to come into discussions like this, is what do you do with your finished images? If you post on the internet or on a website, 6MP will do after cropping. Anything more is a waste of funds for that useage. Printing is another dimension. I agree that DR and lower base ISO are real pluses, but they are seldom or ever seen in under 10MP sensors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 13, 2016 Share #218 Posted July 13, 2016 If you post on the internet or on a website, 6MP will do after cropping.True, but when monitors improve to the next step, might we be unhappy with 6MP? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 13, 2016 Share #219 Posted July 13, 2016 True, but when monitors improve to the next step, might we be unhappy with 6MP?That rather depends on what your image is intended to show - resolution or composition. My suspicion is we passed the reasonable minimum for composition some time ago, if you hold to the framing approach esposed by Cartier-Bresson (while accepting limited alignment and edge cropping). I have yet to admire a great image for its resolution, and megapixels are, for me, just another technical factor which goes along with other improvements. We already have equipment which surpasses our needs, hence the appeal of Leica's approach of less is more. There is no virtue in less MP, but more MP won't improve a poor image. As Ansel Adams commented: "There's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept." Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted July 13, 2016 Share #220 Posted July 13, 2016 My needs are met by 24MP. That said, what one needs and what one wants... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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