Printmaker Posted June 9, 2016 Share #141 Posted June 9, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Okay, here is a simple test to see if you need more MP. Rent or borrow a Monochrom. Then shoot the same scene with both your current Leica and, with the same lens, shoot it with the Monochrom. Convert the file to B&W. Do not sharpen. Pixel peep the files or print both at the largest size you anticipate printing. If the Monochrom file looks better, you need more MP. If you can not see a difference, then you are already shooting with all the MP you need. The only downside of this test is you will probably want to keep the Monochrom. You could do the same test with a S but the increased sensor size, lens quality, dynamic range and bit depth put this camera in a different league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 9, 2016 Posted June 9, 2016 Hi Printmaker, Take a look here How many megapixels in the next M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Tailwagger Posted June 9, 2016 Share #142 Posted June 9, 2016 Okay, here is a simple test to see if you need more MP. Rent or borrow a Monochrom. Then shoot the same scene with both your current Leica and, with the same lens, shoot it with the Monochrom. Convert the file to B&W. Do not sharpen. Pixel peep the files or print both at the largest size you anticipate printing. If the Monochrom file looks better, you need more MP. If you can not see a difference, then you are already shooting with all the MP you need. The only downside of this test is you will probably want to keep the Monochrom. You could do the same test with a S but the increased sensor size, lens quality, dynamic range and bit depth put this camera in a different league. I don't doubt what you're seeing, but the MM and non-MM have essentially, if not exactly, the same number of pixels. Perhaps adding more MP can even the score, but the difference in acuity you see clearly isn't the result of more MP, its likely the result of less filtering given the MM has removed the color filter array present on color Ms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 9, 2016 Share #143 Posted June 9, 2016 Okay, here is a simple test to see if you need more MP. Rent or borrow a Monochrom. Then shoot the same scene with both your current Leica and, with the same lens, shoot it with the Monochrom. Convert the file to B&W. Do not sharpen. Pixel peep the files or print both at the largest size you anticipate printing. If the Monochrom file looks better, you need more MP. If you can not see a difference, then you are already shooting with all the MP you need. The only downside of this test is you will probably want to keep the Monochrom. You could do the same test with a S but the increased sensor size, lens quality, dynamic range and bit depth put this camera in a different league. I have both an A7R2 and Pentax 645Z in addition to my Leica gear, plus a 24" printer. I already know I want more MP in the next M *for me*. But only sometimes. Half the time 24 is more than enough. That's why I would like to see identical bodies with different MP counts, or at least a sRAW function. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share #144 Posted June 9, 2016 I have both an A7R2 and Pentax 645Z in addition to my Leica gear, plus a 24" printer. I already know I want more MP in the next M *for me*. But only sometimes. Half the time 24 is more than enough. That's why I would like to see identical bodies with different MP counts, or at least a sRAW function. Gordon Exactly! like Sony A7II and A7RII. And everybody happy!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted June 9, 2016 Share #145 Posted June 9, 2016 Exactly! like Sony A7II and A7RII. And everybody happy!!! Hmmm... we want M and MR? Personally I will prefer Ms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share #146 Posted June 9, 2016 Hmmm... we want M and MR? Personally I will prefer Ms. M,MR and Ms.... f.....Nirvana!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share #147 Posted June 9, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) M,MR and Ms.... f.....Nirvana!!! Everybody happy now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share #148 Posted June 9, 2016 Damm! Another tree bodies to buy!! SWMBO won´t be happy.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted June 10, 2016 Share #149 Posted June 10, 2016 I don't doubt what you're seeing, but the MM and non-MM have essentially, if not exactly, the same number of pixels. Perhaps adding more MP can even the score, but the difference in acuity you see clearly isn't the result of more MP, its likely the result of less filtering given the MM has removed the color filter array present on color Ms. Exactly. The MPs don't change but the lack of filtering approximates a doubling of the MPs. It is not exact but it shows the difference in detail. FWIW: I shot with a 309 MP scanback for many years and know that after a point the extra MP don't improve quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 10, 2016 Share #150 Posted June 10, 2016 This, I agree with. The M needs to play to its strengths which, to be fair to Leica, it has done nearly all the time.That means not increasing the mp count unless the photographic benefits are easily achieved while using the camera in the way most users currently do.It is not primarily a tripod or studio camera but a pre-eminent environmental, people close and personal and spontaneous type of camera, and it's not immediately obvious to me how an increase to 36 or more mp will be more of a help than a hindrance in that type of photography. This bit, not so much. I'd like the M to be slightly better at handling all lighting conditions, and I personally would like an SL- style EVF to put on it when I wish to. A screen is essential of course, as is LV if it is not to become a "statement" camera rather than the best of its kind available. The suggestion that the same camera, but without an LCD, is a statement rather than "the best of its kind available" I find unnecessarily disrespectful of the views of those you might disagree with (putting it mildly). The sense I get of most here who use LCDless cameras is that they use their cameras and and enjoy doing so very much. I can't actually imagine too many people bothering to buy such a camera as a "statement" - if you're right, it's a pretty sad place to be. Who's going to notice ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 10, 2016 Share #151 Posted June 10, 2016 I want 200mp Then all I need to take is a 21mm and no zoom ever required ... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 10, 2016 Share #152 Posted June 10, 2016 Okay, here is a simple test to see if you need more MP. Rent or borrow a Monochrom. Then shoot the same scene with both your current Leica and, with the same lens, shoot it with the Monochrom. Convert the file to B&W. Do not sharpen. Pixel peep the files or print both at the largest size you anticipate printing. If the Monochrom file looks better, you need more MP. If you can not see a difference, then you are already shooting with all the MP you need. The only downside of this test is you will probably want to keep the Monochrom. You could do the same test with a S but the increased sensor size, lens quality, dynamic range and bit depth put this camera in a different league. a test with predetermined outcome, but it misses one parameter: not the pixel count is doubled but the acuity is doubled because all available pixels are used instead of interpolated and the optical effect of the filters removed. The cause of the difficulties with high MP, small Airy disks, is not replicated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 10, 2016 Share #153 Posted June 10, 2016 Exactly! like Sony A7II and A7RII. And everybody happy!!! The majority of this thread seems to be about people wanting to buy a new camera to make them a better photographer (doesn't it always?), but this goes in the opposite direction of wanting a whole new camera to save five seconds in post processing. Have you never thought that you could just buy the A7RII and downsize the file? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share #154 Posted June 10, 2016 The majority of this thread seems to be about people wanting to buy a new camera to make them a better photographer (doesn't it always?), but this goes in the opposite direction of wanting a whole new camera to save five seconds in post processing. Have you never thought that you could just buy the A7RII and downsize the file? Personally what make me a better photographer is mostly practise, study and dedication. Good specialized tools that inspire me also help. For landscape, studio shooting: High MP count and dynamic range. For reportage, street...: lower MP count and high ISO capabilities. Just I happen to own some leica glass that is terrific for landscape, studio, reportage, street.....And would be kind of a dream to have two leica bodies for different purposes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted June 10, 2016 Share #155 Posted June 10, 2016 Okay, here is a simple test to see if you need more MP. Rent or borrow a Monochrom. Then shoot the same scene with both your current Leica and, with the same lens, shoot it with the Monochrom. Convert the file to B&W. Do not sharpen. Pixel peep the files or print both at the largest size you anticipate printing. If the Monochrom file looks better, you need more MP. If you can not see a difference, then you are already shooting with all the MP you need. The only downside of this test is you will probably want to keep the Monochrom. You could do the same test with a S but the increased sensor size, lens quality, dynamic range and bit depth put this camera in a different league. I have the M240 and Monochrom v1. The Monochrome files ALWAYS look substantially better, especially when pixel peeping, both in terms of resolution, noise pattern, and tonality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 10, 2016 Share #156 Posted June 10, 2016 This, I agree with. This bit, not so much. The suggestion that the same camera, but without an LCD, is a statement rather than "the best of its kind available" I find unnecessarily disrespectful of the views of those you might disagree with (putting it mildly). The sense I get of most here who use LCDless cameras is that they use their cameras and and enjoy doing so very much. I can't actually imagine too many people bothering to buy such a camera as a "statement" - if you're right, it's a pretty sad place to be. Who's going to notice ... I don't mean "statement" from the customers' point of view but from Leica's point of view. And I'm talking about the next M, not current (or future) M derivatives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 10, 2016 Share #157 Posted June 10, 2016 I don't mean "statement" from the customers' point of view but from Leica's point of view. And I'm talking about the next M, not current (or future) M derivatives. When a manufacturer develops a product as a "statement", surely it's either as a study, to show what they're capable of or an exploration of what the future might hold. It might also provide context for the next M, though I doubt that. My expectation is that the next M will be a breakthrough camera from which future derivatives will be based. Aside from vanity collector's items, Leica has gone from a single product with mid-life upgrades (M8.2 & M9P) to three variants - Monochrom, simpler version (M-E & 262) and M-D. Whether those variants will be permanent offerings or one-off, time will tell, but to my mind that bodes well for the M cameras and is consistent with Leica's commitment to the M. Those variants, however, were driven by demand. When the M(240) was released, many were unhappy with the move to CMOS and the new direction of the M. It was relatively simple for Leica to continue the M9 in a different, entry level guise. This was smart thinking, and continuing that approach with th 262 just leveraged off existing investment, while expanding the pool of M users. The M-D was driven by demand. Perhaps not huge, but by demand. When the M60 was released I was not alone in asking Stefan Daniel for a production model. His equivocation was part of my decision to buy the camera after I cancelled my order. I don't see these as statement cameras at all. The fact that Leica has been producing variants of their core M camera in response to market demand is very encouraging. It shows they can vary their production to meet perceived demand. I don't see any other camera maker doing that quite so bravely or effectively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otho Posted June 16, 2016 Share #158 Posted June 16, 2016 New M mount camera with CCD sensor coming soon? Resolution greater than 24MP?===>> http://leicarumors.com/2016/06/16/new-m-mount-camera-with-ccd-sensor-coming-soon.aspx/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 16, 2016 Share #159 Posted June 16, 2016 Saw that on Leica Rumours. Why would Leica develop such a camera? Technically, what would a, say, 36MP CCD M mount offer? Presumably, it would have the new rangefinder from the M(240), new shutter, better processor, larger buffer, better LCD ... what would the new form factor look like? No video, no EVF and no live view, so it's aimed at that group that prefers the look of the CCD sensor (and don't like video or live view), so that sounds like a traditionalist. Would a traditionalist (wanting a thinner camera like an M7 and possibly a manual shutter cocking lever like a film advance) want a new form factor? Sounds brave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2016 Share #160 Posted June 16, 2016 Especially as a 36 MP CCD would be a bit of a challenge to build, mainly in the noise department. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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