Thoughts on 90mm Elmarit f2.8

[dbane883]

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I'd like to add a lens to the bag and am contemplating a new 90mm Summicron f2.0 or a used Elmarit 2.8.

 

The Elmarit is about 1/2 the price of a new Summicron and in mint condition.

 

I've never tried either but I've heard good things about both.

 

Any suggestions?

[menos I M6]

The last version of the 90/2.8, the Elmarit-M (E46 filter and collapsible lens hood) is a universally fantastic lens.

Its main weakness is flare in strong backlit situations, which in my opinion often can be adding to a situation.

 

The 90/2 E55 pre ASPH is an equally interesting lens - very, very close in performance to the Elmarit but affording another stop of light when you need it at the cost of a less universal filter size, a bit more weight and slightly bigger size.

Both of these go for about the same money, give or take 100 USD, depending on your needs.

 

The modern 90/2 APO is an entirely different animal, allegedly being the optically best fast 90mm there is. You pay for that performance (in money, weight and size). If you must have the optically best, there is nothing like the 90/2 APO.

 

There are other great choices too - 90/2.5 if you are not averse to the rubber parts, the previous "thin" 90/2.8 Elmarit (also an excellent lens, it's major strength being not to be much less of a performer than the latest 90/2.8, but being much smaller to carry) or even the 90/4 Macro-Elmar.

[jmahto]

I have found the "softness" of thin elmarit at f2.8 useful in portraits. It is sharp enough when stopped down too. Another compact choice is 90 macro-elmar. Perfect for landscapes and pixel peepers. This one is to have for future higher mega pixel Ms

 

Disclaimer. No experience with faster 90s.

[lanetomlane]

Have the 90 Summicron but because of its size left it at home unless I specifically needed it. We went on holiday last year and I wanted to take a 90 but not the Summicron. I bought a secondhand Elmarit and absolutely love it; it's now always in the bag wherever I go. I've been extremely pleased with the images I've had from it.

 

Cheers, Tom

[DigitalHeMan]

I compared a number of 90 Summicron and Elmarit 90 lenses when I was looking to buy. I felt that in terms of image qualities, yes, the Summicron gave very nice 3D images, but was significantly heavier (and more expensive) than the Elmarit, so I ended up going for the Elmarit and it hasn't disappointed. It's worth pointing out that when testing both lenses, there was a lot of sample variation, at least on my rangefinder, and it took me a while to find one that satisfied me in terms of focus accuracy. (Of course it is also possible to have the lenses adjusted if necessary)

 

I have since also acquired the Macro 90mm, and agree that this is a very compact and sharp lens, if you can live with the slightly slower max aperture.

 

Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk

[lct]

Summicrons: The latest (v3, # 11136) Summicron 90/2 pre-apo has almost the same size and weight as the current Summicron 90/2 apo (# 11884). V3 is significantly softer than the latter at f/2 which makes it one of my favorite lenses for portrait. At f/2.8 and on, the apo remains a bit sharper but i need side by side comparos to see the difference. Only significant flaw of v3 is CA, especially at f/2 but it remains present at other apertures. My copy has needed a CLA to focus accurately on digital and for 6-bit coding. DIY 6-bit coding is difficult on this lens due to a misplaced screw head on the flange.

 

Elmarit: My copy of the latest (v2, # 11807) Elmarit 90/2.8 needed a CLA for focus accuracy and 6-bit coding also but i did not try DIY coding on it so i don’t recall if it has a misplaced screw head on the flange. This lens is almost as sharp as the 90/2 apo at all apertures but f/2.8 where it is a bit softer than the latter. It has a bit more CA than the 90/2 apo but significantly less than the 90/2 pre-apo. Flare wise it is one of my least flare prone 90s and it is much better than my «thin» Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8 from this viewpoint.

Edited May 10, 2016 by lct

[stevieg]

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I have the elmarit and macro-elmar. Both are superb, although I find that the small size and slightly higher contrast in the macro means that it is on my M240 more often. As I mainly use them for landscape work, the slower f4 doesn't make much difference to me. Decide what your  needs are and go with what you prefer. There is a price difference also between the two! 

[bencoyote]

The APO Summicron is an interesting lens. It seems to be nearly technically flawless. One poster above suggested that it can have CA, without doubting him in any way, I'm going to say that I've never seen that. It seems perfect in every way to me. If there is a weakness, then weaknesses ends up being intrinsic in its application in the rangefinder concept and my own abilities.

 

Leica photographers tend to work at human scale and they tend to work at the distance where you do need to focus a lens rather than rack it to infinity. There is kind of a feeling with Leica lenses where they are designed to be shot wide open. If you do that with the APO Summicron wide open then your depth of field ends up being so narrow that it may not be effective compositionally. You get things like the nose or ear out of focus problem. It can also be a challenge to keep it focused with just the subtle almost imperceptible movement forward or back that all human's make. So what you find yourself doing is stopping down a couple of stops.

 

However when you step back and use it more like a wide angle lens incorporating context around your subject just from a distance then you have more depth of field but it becomes more difficult to focus because the fine details with contrast sufficient to focus are smaller in the viewfinder. When you are approaching the level of light where you want to use f/2 to keep your ISO reasonable, your eye begins to struggle to pick them out.

 

So I find that the 90mm at f/2 is approaching a balance and tipping point where the fundamental limitations of telephoto photography and the rangefinder concept begin to break down. Both of those points when taken together really make me wonder about the actual utility of the additional stop of light gathering at f/2 over f/2.8 when used on a rangefinder.

 

I feel like in some ways the APO-Summicron is the brother to the Noctilux, the epitome of optical perfection that lives right at the edge of what is possible within the rangefinder camera system, and just like the Noctilux for people used to lightness and compact design of RF lenses, it feels too big and heavy for everyday use (but in comparison to a SLR lens, it's not really that big.)

 

As an educational experience, the 90mm f/2 is fabulous. It lets you step over the edge and into a frontier where sometimes things don't always work as you hope they would. And by doing so, you come to realize why you don't want to do that. For that I feel as though I've gotten my money's worth. I believe that someday down the road, I'll find myself buying the Macro-Elmar as a more practically usable walk around short telephoto lens.

 

I want to end by saying I am in no way trying to damn with faint praise. I love the APO-Summicron. I just think it is worth considering some points above in light of your own photography.

Edited May 10, 2016 by bencoyote

[lct]

The pre-apo has CA.

[Monochrome]

I also have the last version of the Elmarit 90mm. Not my most used lens but certainly sharp and contrasty enough.

It is small and light and never a problem when i take it with me, even possible to carry it in your coat pocket.

 

It doesn't have a code engraved, but a Leica representative assured me it's not necessary to have a code on this lens.

If you can get this lens at a good price, i recommend it.

[uhoh7]

I tired the 90 elmarit-M. Very sharp, with bokeh not quite as nice as the crons.

 

In the end the 90 summmarit was alot smaller and feels much lighter because it's shorter, and gives performance a tad better.

[asiafish]

I own the version one 90 Elmarit (late 1960s).  It is fairly soft wide-open, but biting sharp from f/4 in the center and at f/8 across the frame.  What I like most is the lovely rendering, especially for portraits of women it is a beautiful lens, and VERY cheap.

Edited May 10, 2016 by asiafish

[Ecar]

Here's my experience FWIW:

 

- The APO is technically the best lens, almost perfect, BUT very "clinical" even wide open. If that's the rendering you want, then the Summarit is very close, smaller and cheaper (I tested the f/2.5, not the latest f/2.4, but I understand there's no difference in rendering). I did not keep either of them.

 

- The pre-APO is very flattering for portraits at f/2-f/2.8. At f/4-f/5.6, it becomes virtually impossible to tell the difference in sharpness between pre-APO and APO. The pre-APO's bokeh is somewhat creamier than the Elmarit's, but not by much. Also, while it's only slightly larger and heavier, the Summicron definitely feels bulkier to me. I also find the Summicron somewhat slower and more difficult to focus than the Elmarit-M.

 

- The Elmarit-M 90/2.8 is the best all-rounder IMO. For some reason I ended up with two of these and can't get around to letting one of them go... I have never owned or tested an older Elmarit version.

 

- The "thin" Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8 is a good travel and portrait lens, with a rendering similar to that of the Elmarit, which requires some attention to avoid flare. i have never owned or tested the earlier "fat" version.

 

- The Macro is an amazing performer for such a diminutive lens. Extremely sharp but not clinical. However, you may find f/4 to be limiting and it's rather expensive, unfortunately. I'm not into macro, but it is my 90 of choice for landscape...

 

And if you like a touch of vintage, I would recommend the Canon 85/1.8 and the Nikkor 85//2 (both in LTM). These old Sonnars are still capable of producing fantastic images on modern digital cameras.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Ecar

[sarav]

90 Elmarit (last ver. E46)

 

PRO: Sharpness, handling, 3D effect (the real 3D effect which gives plasticity to a subject like in a renaissance paint. Not the "modern" 3D effect which overprint a sharp "flat" area to an out-of-focus area, also flat....)

CONS: not APO (if you intend to use it in B&W with deep-red or IR filters)

[Guest )-(]

I've previously had the 90-APO and it is phenomenal for landscape use but ultimately I didn't enjoy it for general use, too big, too fat!

It really is a bit of a beast and if you had the opportunity to handle one prior to buying it's worth investigating if you are comfortable with the size.

 

I now have the 90 Elmarit (E46 latest) and agree (with Ecar) that it's the best 'all round' option. The best compromise of size, performance, aperture, ergonomics.

It's worth pointing out that it's a 'Mandler lens' too and shows it at f/2.8, though not as extreme as a 75 Summilux/90 pre-APO though.

Maybe it's the best all round package with the least attraction in any one category - there are faster or smaller or lighter options. If any one of those is a killer criterion...

 

I've also had the thin Tele-Elmarit and liked that as an even smaller, lower contrast lens. I'd probably pick up another one of these down the track.

Lovely lens, 39mm filters, nice low contrast if you prefer this.

 

If your intended use is portraiture, I'd be inclined towards the previous 90 Summicron (if the size is acceptable), or the Elmarit/Tele-Elmarit.

If it's for infinity landscapes then the APO is something else. I don't know the 90 Macro so can't speak to that one.

 

These are all great lenses in different ways, good luck with your decision! 

[lct]

[...] I've also had the thin Tele-Elmarit and liked that as an even smaller, lower contrast lens. I'd probably pick up another one of these down the track. Lovely lens, 39mm filters, nice low contrast if you prefer this. [...]

 

I don't recall that my "thin" Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8 has lower contrast than my Elmarit 90/2.8 v2 in a significant way but i haven't used the former for a long time so i may be wrong. My only gripe vs thin T-E was flare but otherwise i didn't find it inferior to any other non-asph 90 besides the 90/4 macro i must say.

[luigi bertolotti]

Elmarit-M is my preferred 90 from the day I bought it : great contrast and sharpness and, as noted also above, a significant "3D effect" (not a rigorous term, but gives the idea) at medium distances. Have also Summicron... but frankly I have had always problems in using f2 with a 90mm... . The only defect of Elmarit-M is that my one is chrome (bought like this because love chromes ...  ) , so it is definitely HEAVY... which sometime makes me to feel nostalgic of my old "nano" TE90...

[menos I M6]

I have a lot of different lenses in the 90 mm range and each and everyone of them has something special about it that prevents me from selling it.

From the lot I actually find the one single most versatile 90mm is the 90/2 Summicron E55 (the latest pre ASPH Summicron).

 

It offers f2 yet is really not that much heavier and larger to carry than the latest E46 Elmarit-M.

I have had a handful of Elmarit-M E46 over the years (and strangely still keep two of them) and none of them was any sharper or contrasted then the E55 Summicron from f2.8 on.

So to me it was always that compromise of leaving one stop at home in favor of saving just a tiny bit of weight/size.

 

The E46 Elmarit-M per se is not exactly a lightweight a compact lens. It is a very, very solid and tough built lens with all modern features one would want (lens hood, E46 filter, fast focussing, old Leica build quality, available 6-bit coding, modern body design, sharp even wide open, high contrast, …).

 

I think it really is best to have two 90mm lenses at least - to me the dream pair is the 90/2 E55 for all it's wonderfulness and the 90/4 Macro Elmar for the lightest possible, smallest but also highest performing 90mm lenses there is. You get everything from everything with this lens pair and the best is that when shopping clever, one can indeed almost get these two lenses for the price of a 90/2 APO ;-)

 

If one never needs f2 and only wants one 90mm lens either the 90/2.8 E46 or 90/2.8 thin (depending on priorities) are the nicest 90mm lenses to have.

 

Then of course there is the etherial 90/2.8 Tele-Elmarit "Fat" I have a black copy that I needed to completely overhaul and a silver chrome (more rare) copy is in the mail - these are very, very beautiful lenses (low contrast, yet very, very sharp slightly stopped down and with a beautiful veiling flare wide open, dream flattering portrait lenses really).

The super bargain must be the "long" Elmarit v1 with similar qualities to the later introduced "fat" tele version, yet much, much more affordable (people really don't seem to want these).

 

There is of course also the 85mm focal length, and, and …

 

But when it comes down to which is the overall one single most useful around 90mm - for me it's the latest E55 Summicron.

[Guest )-(]

I don't recall that my "thin" Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8 has lower contrast than my Elmarit 90/2.8 v2 in a significant way but i haven't used the former for a long time so i may be wrong. My only gripe vs thin T-E was flare but otherwise i didn't find it inferior to any other non-asph 90 besides the 90/4 macro i must say.

It's certainly possible I am confusing flare with lower contrast, or it was just my copy. I never owned both at the same time to compare.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgk]

The E46 Elmarit-M per se is not exactly a lightweight a compact lens. It is a very, very solid and tough built lens with all modern features one would want (lens hood, E46 filter, fast focussing, old Leica build quality, available 6-bit coding, modern body design, sharp even wide open, high contrast, …).

 

The 90mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M is IMO best described as an all round workhorse of a lens. Its a dependable, very good lens with just very marginal chroma which can be corrected in post. Mine shoots well into the light and stopped down has very few flaws at all. Its not that small, nor that light but does take E46 and I can thoroughly recommend it. I've just got back from a trip on which I used mine a lot and apart from the odd focus issue (my fault, not the camera/lens) it worked superbly.