The Leica M-D thread - merged.

[enboe]

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There is another advantage. A few months ago I was being asked very agressively if I had deleted the pictures I took from a couple in the street of Stuttgart. When I said yes ( I did ) , they wanted to see all my pictures on my screen, in case I had forgotten one.  With the M-D such a thing just is not happening anymore.

 

I'm not sure what the laws are in Germany, but in the United States, if the photo was taken from public property, and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, ex. restrooms, then you are significantly covered by the law.  The image is your property, and any attempt to force you to surrender destroy your property, from harassment to assault, is a crime.  I would give the offenders a polite tutorial on the law, and if things escalate, call the police to have them arrested and taken into custody.

 

Now, I wonder if the gnomes in Wetzlar offer a silver hardware and top/bottom plate swap?

 

Eric

[Kwesi]

There is another advantage. A few months ago I was being asked very agressively if I had deleted the pictures I took from a couple in the street of Stuttgart. When I said yes ( I did ) , they wanted to see all my pictures on my screen, in case I had forgotten one.  With the M-D such a thing just is not happening anymore.

 

Not sure how not being able to prove that you have deleted the images can be seen as an advantage. Rather the opposite I would think. Especially when the individual/s are being very aggressive toward the photographer.

[Kwesi]

I have been enjoying reading this thread and would like to share y thoughts on the M-D.

I am surprised at how much I am drawn to it. I am an M240 user and it would not be a replacement. Rather it would be for me a digital M7. I do wish that

1: DNG was uncompressed, in the spirit of purity and,

2: in the spirit of the "dx" setting on the M7, there was an auto ISO setting on the ISO dial. This would allow me to use 200 outdoors and be assured that by switching to "auto" indoors I was getting the lowest possible ISO without the guess work involved. 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Kwesi

[ECohen]

Would like to see an M-D / M60 image thread, no outsiders allowed, no pretenders at all.

 

 

There won't be much difference to M240 images...

 

 

I would agree there needs to be a separate category  no outsiders. 

 

I am an outsider and passionate about my opinion, however I have learned for this group that no screen isn't as silly as I think it is. 

I can see how the experience is liberating for its users.....Those users do need their own category as to get full enjoyment or their issues and experiences  without having to defend their choice.

 

Yes the photos are the same but the experience  is far different....to me, so different I can barely understand it.

 

Look at that you..... have brought me over to your side If I promise not to post  can I please stalk?....I might learn something.

Edited May 1, 2016 by ECohen

[Kwesi]

I would agree there needs to be a separate category  no outsiders. 

 

I am an outsider and passionate about my opinion, however I have learned for this group that no screen isn't as silly as I think it is. 

I can see how the experience is liberating for its users.....Those users do need their own category as to get full enjoyment or their issues and experiences  without having to defend their choice.

 

Yes the photos are the same but the experience  is far different....to me, so different I can barely understand it.

 

Look at that you..... have brought me over to your side If I promise not to post  can I please stalk?....I might learn something.

 

I'm actually very surprised that most digital M users don't have the auto review function turned off. My guess is that the silent majority of users have it turned off.

[ramarren]

I have been enjoying reading this thread and would like to share y thoughts on the M-D.

I am surprised at how much I am drawn to it. I am an M240 user and it would not be a replacement. Rather it would be for me a digital M7. I do wish that

1: DNG was uncompressed, in the spirit of purity and,

2: in the spirit of the "dx" setting on the M7, there was an auto ISO setting on the ISO dial. This would allow me to use 200 outdoors and be assured that by switching to "auto" indoors I was getting the lowest possible ISO without the guess work involved. 

 

 

I find lossless DNG compression to be quite welcome .. It can save up to 50% space on the storage card with absolutely no impact on the image data. Why wouldn't you want that? 

 

I find a similar draw ... I am really quite happy with the M-P and SL that I have already, don't need another body, but the M-D is very very appealing to me anyway. Maybe if I come into a nice windfall! 

Edited May 1, 2016 by ramarren

[jcraf]

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perhaps a good compromise would be to get a MD half case when they're available, put your trusty M240/262 in and then essentially you'll have a camera without a LCD screen...........until you need it.

A couple of hundred bucks compared to several thousand spent for a 240/262 sans screen. After all the MD is pretty much the same camera.......but less for more.

 

Ah, I considered that, but of course the half case for the M-D will have a circular hole in the back for the ISO dial, just like those for film Ms.  A porthole-like view of the screen is almost as heretical as a full screen view.

 

This was a dilemma for me, and I couldn't see a neat solution. Taping over the hole would have looked naff. So in the end I had to buy the M-D and be done with it.

Edited May 1, 2016 by jcraf

[Steve Ricoh]

My 'trusty' M240 may as well not have a screen, especially when the damn thing records black frames!! Perhaps I have a hybrid M-D 240. Theres one-upmanship!

Edited May 1, 2016 by Steve Ricoh

[pop]

In my opinion - and it's just that - too much is done over the absence of a display.

 

I counted the number of menu entries present in the M (Typ 240). There are 42 entries in all. About one third (15) are about controlling the actual camera. Some of them may seem dispensable, some not. Of the other kinds of menu entries, ten entries are about the image format, seven about the rendering of those images, seven about controlling the display and ten about other things, most of them rather loosely connected to taking a photograph. This is my own private evaluation of those menu entries and your assessment may vary.

 

For those photographers who can say beforehand which settings they are going to use and who elect to capture in DNG only a camera offering only a subset of the 15 camera controlling settings the M-D might carry much attraction. No more mis-set options, no more distraction about which settings may or may not have an influence on steps that come later in the work flow. 

[Paulus]

I'm not sure what the laws are in Germany, but in the United States, if the photo was taken from public property, and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, ex. restrooms, then you are significantly covered by the law.  The image is your property, and any attempt to force you to surrender destroy your property, from harassment to assault, is a crime.  I would give the offenders a polite tutorial on the law, and if things escalate, call the police to have them arrested and taken into custody.

 

Sometimes I do that, but sometimes I don't. Let's call it intuition, but this time, it felt safer to oblige. You always have to call the police after the fact and I had no lust to wait until the fact happened. A case for me as in : " better safe, then sorry. "

[edwardkaraa]

Sometimes I do that, but sometimes I don't. Let's call it intuition, but this time, it felt safer to oblige. You always have to call the police after the fact and I had no lust to wait until the fact happened. A case for me as in : " better safe, then sorry. "

Well, in France, it's illegal to photograph people in public places, unless you ask for permission beforehand. The image rights belong to the subject not the photographer. If you refuse to delete the shots, they can call the police

[Paulus]

Not sure how not being able to prove that you have deleted the images can be seen as an advantage. Rather the opposite I would think. Especially when the individual/s are being very aggressive toward the photographer.

Maybe, you know in the film times, it was a custom ( for me at least ) to have an extra roll of film without box , in my pocket. if someone came to me agressively insisting on the film inside to demolish it, I would change it in my hand, with the roll I had secretly got out of my pocket. The agressor could demolish the handed film, pulling the film outof the roll and in the sunlight. Leaving me standing with the roll in question slipped in my pocket and looking sadly. I cannot remember I had to apply this way of deceit once.

One " film " I remember was on a militairy airstrip. Landing in a Dutch Navy Fokker 27 at night,  I shot some photos of Apache Helicopters ready to being  shipped to Afganistan. An officer told me to stop photographing and I was ready to give him the roll in my pocket, but he never claimed it. Just stopping was enough. It was quite a nice picture that I printed from that scene.

[Guest]

Ah, I considered that, but of course the half case for the M-D will have a circular hole in the back for the ISO dial, just like those for film Ms.  A porthole-like view of the screen is almost as heretical as a full screen view.

 

This was a dilemma for me, and I couldn't see a neat solution. Taping over the hole would have looked naff. So in the end I had to buy the M-D and be done with it.

 

 

Right, I forgot about the hole they'd have to leave for the ISO dial......But even a custom made case without the hole would still save a lot of dollars.

 

​Anyway this discussion reminds me of when I was conducting a workshop on Documentary Film and Photography Production / Techniques at the Maine Media Workshops in the US a couple of years ago......There were still photographers as well as film-makers taking this workshop and in trying to get the participants to be "more in the moment" when they were shooting the documentaries I had them cover their camera's LCD screens with black paper camera tape. In fairness I also had the video students agree not to playback/review anything until they got back to base.

Just this one step caused so much consternation and grief with the still photographers and I was sure that many, most, of them "cheated" once they were out on their field assignments. Even though I justified the restriction by saying that whenever they were looking at the LCD playback they were probably missing the shot they should have caught. It's crazy, "chimping" has become the crack of digital photography.

No, I will not get an MD, but I do applaud Leica for bringing this model of the M out, no other digital camera manufacturer has yet done so and I hope it does well enough to justify the effort. Meanwhile, come to think of it I have three of them anyway, my two M7's and an M6.

 

A good discussion everyone!

Edited May 1, 2016 by Guest

[jaapv]

I'm actually very surprised that most digital M users don't have the auto review function turned off. My guess is that the silent majority of users have it turned off.

Of course it is turned off on my camera. I wouldn't want that light flashing in my eye each time I take a photo. It is set to "hold shutter release", though,

[edwardkaraa]

The LCD is the damnation of modern photography. The urge to look at the shots immediately is irresistible. We lost confidence in our metering and focusing skills and need to make sure we got it right. I know it is one of my weaknesses. I can't resist it

[Kwesi]

Maybe, you know in the film times, it was a custom ( for me at least ) to have an extra roll of film without box , in my pocket. if someone came to me agressively insisting on the film inside to demolish it, I would change it in my hand, with the roll I had secretly got out of my pocket. The agressor could demolish the handed film, pulling the film outof the roll and in the sunlight. Leaving me standing with the roll in question slipped in my pocket and looking sadly. I cannot remember I had to apply this way of deceit once.

One " film " I remember was on a militairy airstrip. Landing in a Dutch Navy Fokker 27 at night,  I shot some photos of Apache Helicopters ready to being  shipped to Afganistan. An officer told me to stop photographing and I was ready to give him the roll in my pocket, but he never claimed it. Just stopping was enough. It was quite a nice picture that I printed from that scene.

 

That is a great story!

[Kwesi]

I find lossless DNG compression to be quite welcome .. It can save up to 50% space on the storage card with absolutely no impact on the image data. Why wouldn't you want that? 

 

I find a similar draw ... I am really quite happy with the M-P and SL that I have already, don't need another body, but the M-D is very very appealing to me anyway. Maybe if I come into a nice windfall! 

I think my concern is that 1: it may be "virtually" lossless as opposed to "absolutely" lossless. 2: will future DNG converters be able to uncompress the files when storage size is no longer an issue. 3: The real truth of the matter may be that I'm an unconvinced Luddite  !

[jaapv]

Lossless is lossless... And DNG open source software, very unlikely to die without warning.

[Tailwagger]

The LCD is the damnation of modern photography. The urge to look at the shots immediately is irresistible. We lost confidence in our metering and focusing skills and need to make sure we got it right.

 

While I take your point, this seems a little bit revisionist.  I seem to recall Hasselblad etal, sold quite a few Polaroid backs to professionals.  If a shot is important, a little added certainty is nothing to be apologetic about.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Kwesi]

Lossless is lossless... And DNG open source software, very unlikely to die without warning.

 

Thanks Jaap! I did a little research to convince myself and you are right.  Link and title for a little light reading below,

 

How DNG compresses raw data with lossless JPEG92 - ThNdl

 

http://thndl.com/how-dng-compresses-raw-data-with-lossless-jpeg92.html

Edited May 1, 2016 by Kwesi