The Leica M-D thread - merged.

[menos I M6]

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If the rumors are correct, it's a little weird going back to brass. The even with removed parts it ends up weighting the same as M262. It could have been little lighter.

 

For tooling I think not much difference from M60 tooling?

 

All in all, this doesn't really get me interested. The M262 is already there for me. The only relevance might have been if they shaved mm off the thickness and made it film M size now that screen is removed.

 

Still hope it sells extremely well and keeps up the Leica momentum.

 

 

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It seems that the decision going back to brass is based on the traditional building material for Leica cameras.

It is something about their heritage which in the past simply was the best material to build cameras from (materials and production technology have evolved greatly from back then).

There is also a customer group who prefer brass as a base material as of the feel of heft, quality and of it's characteristics of developing a certain patina during regular use.

 

I am guilty in this respect and prefer a Leica M, made of brass and painted black for that reason.

 

The M60 was made of stainless steel - most likely machined from a solid block, other than machining fixtures and special milling tools being no product specific tooling involved.

A brass based component may involve a die to pre-form a raw component before machining.

As of a lack of display that die may be different from the die used to pre-form M10 components (there is a LCD cutout both in the top plate and bottom plate) - or it may not.

My guess is that the new camera's components are different enough to grant a new set of tools which then have to amortized over a much, much smaller quantity of projected product during product life, hence the higher cost of the new camera.

 

Remember how badly the M60 was said to sell - this surely was a factor in how Leica projects numbers of the new product? They met be surprised, or not. I am certainly interested in one.

 

From the picture it seems there will be no EVF support. In that case it is exactly like M262 minus LCD and costs more!

 

Something doesn't add up.

See above - it doesn't calculate as "take something out, so it becomes less expensive to build".

It is more like "take something out, change components with new expensive tooling and sell only a small estimated quantity to write off the newly made tooling, so it becomes MORE expensive to build in the end" :-(

 

Look like MA back to me, and I suspect the LCD screen and the buttons and internal electronics involved cost a lot more in any event. In the end, they are going to charge more because they can -- it is a vanity item to show how cool one is to have a digital camera operating like an MP (film). They will even have a little video with some renowned older photographer singing its praises. I get it, its marketing, great for them if it earns them a bucket lot of euros. Doesn't mean my eyes should be closed so I don't recognize what's in front of me.

I don't agree about the vanity aspect here.

There really are people who prefer a camera without display.

There are people who prefer a pencil and notebook over a smartphone.

There are people who like a manual transmission in a lightweight sports car.

I actually personally know engineers who do still design on a drawing board - you know the large white rectangular things with rulers attached to them you used to see in large numbers, stuffed into a large office space in those cold war documentaries about rocket ships during the nuclear age ;-)

I personally for example would never brew my coffee with one of those plastic machines that eat capsules and spit out "coffee".

 

Some people do like their camera without LCD.

 

 

I think many find the naming conventions confusing and/or pretentious (much like Apple's products, who they are mimicking). Despite Leica's claim that they wanted to make the name more simple (simpler than M9?), have in fact made them more convoluted. Which "M" do you own? The 262 or 240? Do you own the MP or the M-P? And it's only going to get more convoluted as new generations of cameras labelled simply "M" are released. It's a perfectly legitimate complaint from a customer. 

 

I absolutely agree on the issue about the new naming scheme. I understand the idea to stop attaching a designation to the actual product name - after all "Leica M" simply sounds and looks better than "Leica M8) - but then somebody in marketing got carried away in a naming frenzy and the whole idea exploded into the nonsense we have today, calling those slight modified versions of the same camera all different kinds of confusing formulae.

To me the Typ240 generation of cameras simple are M10 cameras. I know there is a bog standard one, one without a logo, one without live view, one in stainless steel without LCD, one that cannot record colors and there will be one in brass without LCD - all M10 cameras to me. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

I hope Leica fixes the exposure compensation issue with the new camera (it is a firmware tweak after all). There could even be an offering from Leica to deliver different firmware versions for different settings - one which disables the EV display on pressing the shutter release and only displays EV value when the (superfluous) thumbwheel is used and a second version for people who prefer the M10 style EV behavior.

A M7 style ISO selector with integrated EV would have been a more user friendly and elegant solution (imagine no thumbwheel hump).

[reddawn]

Hi

 

I think the latest and greatest features of the new M will likely be reserved for the Photokina release later this year..... including the use of newer sensors or that from the Q or SL.

Meanwhile nothing wrong with the M-D as it is, though I have a few friends who own the M60 and wonder what they think about the lower cost version of a supposedly special edition model..... 

[Budfox]

Agree, nice to see a production model of the M60 at a slightly more reasonable price. Feel sorry for the poor bastards who bought the M60 (..........oh sh$t).

[jaapv]

Hi

 

I think the latest and greatest features of the new M will likely be reserved for the Photokina release later this year..... including the use of newer sensors or that from the Q or SL.

 

Meanwhile nothing wrong with the M-D as it is, though I have a few friends who own the M60 and wonder what they think about the lower cost version of a supposedly special edition model..... 

I doubt whether the sensor  will be the same as the Q and the SL (which are completely different sensors anyway). I'm sure the main new feature will be elsewhere. Sensor specifications are getting less interesting anyway, I think we are running into diminishing returns.

[IkarusJohn]

Agree, nice to see a production model of the M60 at a slightly more reasonable price. Feel sorry for the poor bastards who bought the M60 (..........oh sh$t).

 

Not really - it really is a thing of beauty to use in stainless steel, with the matched lens. 

 

I understand people not liking the price, or even the lack of lugs (okay, not really), but to me, it was irresistable. I think making a production model is brilliant. 

[Mike Rawcs]

The release of the M-D, if it has the same dimensions as the M262, probably means that a digital M with the same dimensions as a film M is not on the horizon any time soon. I was hoping for something at Photokina.

[kkonkkrete]

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Look like MA back to me, and I suspect the LCD screen and the buttons and internal electronics involved cost a lot more in any event. In the end, they are going to charge more because they can -- it is a vanity item to show how cool one is to have a digital camera operating like an MP (film). They will even have a little video with some renowned older photographer singing its praises. I get it, its marketing, great for them if it earns them a bucket lot of euros. Doesn't mean my eyes should be closed so I don't recognize what's in front of me.

 

 

Can we please drop this 'vanity' thing once and for all?  Not all of us who are interested in this camera are poseurs.  One of the BEST things about Leica M cameras is that most people DON'T notice them.  My aim is not to 'be cool', but on the contrary not to be noticed.

[sblitz]

Can we please drop this 'vanity' thing once and for all?  Not all of us who are interested in this camera are poseurs.  One of the BEST things about Leica M cameras is that most people DON'T notice them.  My aim is not to 'be cool', but on the contrary not to be noticed.

you are missing the point -- if you are paying EXTRA to have a camera with LESS, Leica indeed understands that people with money will pay up for cache of a black digital camera that looks like a black MP film camera. YOU can say you prefer this for any number of reasons, I won't argue the point, your feelings are yours. But Leica knows its pricing, and its pricing isn't simply cost+ ...... they know how to get its base to pay up for exclusivity. You may like the Safari, the Titanium, the Hermes, etc etc etc etc etc versions. Personally, I like the LCD and knowing I  have nailed the shot and I like live view because I can take a picture at different heights and angles without the camera being glued to my eye (I love the Q! do not regret swapping my M9 for it ... plus some cash). I also think the MD is a cool looking camera and would be tempted to buy it IF I was paying less for a camera that indeed has less.  But it isn't cheaper, it is more expensive, it is black, it is exclusive, it is sold in boutiques in high-end shopping districts -- the very definition of an item being marketed as luxury and it is priced accordingly, not according to its cost. Just because you don't see it that way, doesn't make it so.

[indergaard]

Can we please drop this 'vanity' thing once and for all?  Not all of us who are interested in this camera are poseurs.  One of the BEST things about Leica M cameras is that most people DON'T notice them.  My aim is not to 'be cool', but on the contrary not to be noticed.

Oh come on. Every camera is noticed in todays age. Be it a Leica, a Sony, a Fuji or a Canon. It doesn't really matter if it has an LCD or not! As long as you put something up to your eye people are going to notice it immediately. That's one of the side-effects of all the mass surveillance and more and more lack of privacy for everyone: People become aware of other people looking at them, and people start looking over their shoulders.

 

If you want to be discreet then either use your phone, or get a GoPro and shoot blind with that, OR use a camera with a tilty-flippy screen and act like a complete tourist and shoot from the hip - with preferably a regular consumer grade camera that is NOT taped over.

Edited April 27, 2016 by indergaard

[jdlaing]

Hogwash.

[menos I M6]

you are missing the point -- if you are paying EXTRA to have a camera with LESS, Leica indeed understands that people with money will pay up for cache of a black digital camera that looks like a black MP film camera. YOU can say you prefer this for any number of reasons, I won't argue the point, your feelings are yours. But Leica knows its pricing, and its pricing isn't simply cost+ ...... they know how to get its base to pay up for exclusivity. You may like the Safari, the Titanium, the Hermes, etc etc etc etc etc versions. Personally, I like the LCD and knowing I  have nailed the shot and I like live view because I can take a picture at different heights and angles without the camera being glued to my eye (I love the Q! do not regret swapping my M9 for it ... plus some cash). I also think the MD is a cool looking camera and would be tempted to buy it IF I was paying less for a camera that indeed has less.  But it isn't cheaper, it is more expensive, it is black, it is exclusive, it is sold in boutiques in high-end shopping districts -- the very definition of an item being marketed as luxury and it is priced accordingly, not according to its cost. Just because you don't see it that way, doesn't make it so.

 

Steve I think your argument is flawed.

You too paid more to have less.

 

Instead of paying the money for a Q you could have gotten one of the most feature laden and advanced DSLR or mirrorless cameras + a few lenses to boot. More features, faster AF, better live view, better video, more focal lengths, more, more more, …

Let's be very honest here. Every single person on this forum here who has bought a Leica camera once in their life time, new or second hand paid more to get less - this is how this works with Leica gear.

 

Now a person who pays more for their ultimate digital M is more interested in vanity than a "regular" Leica digital buyer - are you serious?

The reasons why a LCD-less digital M may likely be priced higher have been explained in this thread. It may not be what you think.

[sblitz]

Steve I think your argument is flawed.

You too paid more to have less.

 

Instead of paying the money for a Q you could have gotten one of the most feature laden and advanced DSLR or mirrorless cameras + a few lenses to boot. More features, faster AF, better live view, better video, more focal lengths, more, more more, …

Let's be very honest here. Every single person on this forum here who has bought a Leica camera once in their life time, new or second hand paid more to get less - this is how this works with Leica gear.

 

Now a person who pays more for their ultimate digital M is more interested in vanity than a "regular" Leica digital buyer - are you serious?

The reasons why a LCD-less digital M may likely be priced higher have been explained in this thread. It may not be what you think.

 

This is my last re-post on the subject  . . . . . . The Q is better than the most "feature laden and advanced DSLR or mirrorless cameras" .... I paid up for a sensor and a tuned lens/sensor/software combination that produces extraordinary files (it is the same sensor as in the SL). And yes I like the look, feel, menus, minimalism, etc ---- BUT I WOULDN'T PAY MORE FOR A Q WITHOUT AN LCD.  The MD is not a different camera, it is the SAME CAMERA -- the latest M with a different look so Leica can get a few more sales out this platform before introducing the next one, whatever or whenever it is. The MD is part of their product cycle for a particular model. And charging more and offering less is a clever way to extract that much more premium out of an aging brand. It really is that simple, you complicating the story because you like it. I like it too. And BTW, as others wrote above, there is no such thing as a stealth camera -- people even know when you are using a cellphone to take a picture rather than checking messages -- unless it is hidden in a button or something like that. You like it, buy it ... I am not judging.

Edited April 27, 2016 by sblitz

[kkonkkrete]

I don't want to pay more.  I'm annoyed and disappointed by the rumoured pricing.  It's just high enough that even though this is the camera I want I probably won't end up getting it.

 

In the ideal dream world it would be cheaper, lighter, have no thumbwheel, need no batteries, take breathtaking photos effortlessly and only be available to me, while simultaneously making me a more handsome, charismatic, witty and charitable person too.  Oh and cooler.  I really want to be cooler.

 

Meanwhile, in reality land ... I think they should at least have made it cheaper, but I can't do anything about that, and I understand the reasons why it ended up more expensive...

[bocaburger]

Some people's creative juices are apparently set aflow by a certain color camera, or one bereft of an LCD screen, or one lacking a couple features which can easily be disabled on a nearly-identical one.   I say bravo to Leica for catering to those people.  

 

For me, Idrc what color the camera is, and I can ignore features I don't use as long as their buttons can be disabled so I don't set them running accidentally.  The only time I ever look at the LCD is to check card/battery capacity or change a setting.  I would only be interested in a screenless M if (and only if) the body depth was returned to film-Leica dimensions. 

[-Lss-]

I would only be interested in a screenless M if (and only if) the body depth was returned to film-Leica dimensions. 

 

 

Do you have a camera bag that only fits a slimmer body, do you find ergonomics more important than the screen, or is there some other reason for such a view?

[RF’sDelight]

Almost there…  

 

»More Leica M-D Typ 262 camera leaks« via Leicarumors.com

[jmahto]

This would have been awesome (for me) if it allowed optional EVF.

 

Edit: In my current usage, I ignore M240 LCD 99% of the time but I do have to look at LCD (and press info button) to see what ISO I am shooting with. I like M-D's direct ISO visibility and control.

Edited April 27, 2016 by jmahto

[IkarusJohn]

Well, as an M60 owner, I applaud Leica for making this camera. 

 

I agree with those who are disappointted by the pricing, but I suspect this just reflects Leica's return on a limited production run. There were only 600 M60s made, and apparently they didn't all sell. Leica would be very silly, I think, to expect this camera to have anything less than limited appeal. 

 

The biggest cost to Leica is not the components in a camera like this, but the production cost. More cameras, less cost per unit.  Fewer cameras in the run, greater unit cost. It's not gouging or leveraging vanity buyers; it's just production cost, albeit with whatever Leica sets as a handsome return. 

 

For those who do buy one, I'd be very surprised if this is an option on future models.  I can't see this being a repeat of the Monochrom's surprising success - that had a remarkable and entirely unexpected IQ. This simply provides a different haptic which most here find superficial. 

 

Cheers

John

[satijntje]

The M-D is already at the homepage of Meister Berlin.

http://www.leica-store-berlin.de/de/details/kategorie/neuheiten/produkt/leica-m-d-typ262.html

Price is indeed confirmed to be 5950 Euro, so more €€€ for less M.

 

Not for me

John

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Adam]

Steve I think your argument is flawed.

You too paid more to have less.

 

Instead of paying the money for a Q you could have gotten one of the most feature laden and advanced DSLR or mirrorless cameras + a few lenses to boot. More features, faster AF, better live view, better video, more focal lengths, more, more more, …

Let's be very honest here. Every single person on this forum here who has bought a Leica camera once in their life time, new or second hand paid more to get less - this is how this works with Leica gear.

 

Now a person who pays more for their ultimate digital M is more interested in vanity than a "regular" Leica digital buyer - are you serious?

The reasons why a LCD-less digital M may likely be priced higher have been explained in this thread. It may not be what you think.

 

 

I think many pay more to have access to the M lens. So I am not sure if we are paying more to get less. For me the lens are worth it. But I agree the camera body is overpriced, the MD as well. Not sure about the price being a reflection of production costs though. The MD seems to utilizing all the spare parts of previous runs, which means there should be no additional material cost. I think the price is more likely to be a marketing scheme where a short overpriced run gives an aura of exclusivity. Typical approach for high end luxury sellers.  

 

Still I like the concept. Too bad that no EVF - it is useful for some shots, even if it is a bit crummy.