State of S

[mjrp]

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I picked up a Cambo WRS and have 3 Rodenstock lenses, even if Leica made a t/s lens, I am getting a lot of use from the Rodenstock 32mm, it's worth a try for architecture work, it is pretty amazing! I will be back with an S soon I am sure, but portrait work is generally under strobes and I really love the 006 at base ISO for that.

 

Good luck with the tech cam, I don't think you'll have anything negative to say about it, for what they do they are excellent!

 

Mat

[349A]

If I had to predict the future, I think the SL will "blend" with the S system. First we are going to see adapters to use S lenses on the SL body. Sometime midyear. 

 

Next, maybe in a few generations, the S might become a medium format "mirrorless." My guess is once they have a generation or two improvement over the SL's EVF.... 24-36 months? 50-60mp mirrorless 30 x 45 sensor system. While it will be hard for some to give up the OVF, the advantages will be many. Much lower handlheld shutter speeds, better image quality and a larger shooting envelope. 

 

This would sell really well IMHO. SL users present and future, M users that want the larger sensor, S users... I think it would be a smash hit.

 

The SL lenses- I wonder what the image circle is? They currently share the 82mm thread... Is Leica thinking ahead to bring in the SL users to the mirrorless S? 

 

All guesses on my part. Could be a very interesting path forward. Certainly I would likely be first in line for a system like this.

 

tech cameras- I use an Alpa/Hassy/Rodenstock system. 50mp, very good system. The S is just so much easier to use and the files are on par, just different. The Alpa needs some planning, a tripod, a bag of accessories etc. they are not really so comparable. Different systems for different uses. The S is ready to go in a second, flip the switch, take a snap, amazing file. Pretty much point and shoot.

[ZHNL]

As I said, I don't need more than 37M file, I never print more than 36X24. Resolution will not be a burden for me though, with budget for Leica S, a up to date computer system should not be a problem. For my case, with prime lens only, I certainly prefer crop_ability to do the zoom for me.  

 

Again, personally, I don't mind resolution much but that is doesn't change the fact of awkward position of Leica S is now. Keep in mind, I absolutely love my S and we are discussing the STATE of S. 

 

What is the reason for going MF or S?

 

1. Leica fans (includ long term leica users and rich people just want get best with Leica name.)

2. resolution

3.Rendering (include shallow DOF, I love it, not sure about general public.)

4.Glass (technical performance)

5. shooting experience. love its bright OVF and simple control option in field.

6. File quality. (like S006/S2 very much, for right condition, its quality is unmatched by any system I had)

 

In above list, 2, 3 and 4 are facing steep competition from 35mm System. I know it from my personal experience using system like Sony and Nikon with glass like OTUS, 135APO and great OEM lens. 

 

5,6 are very personal and hard to quantify.

 

And disadvantage of Leica System is also pretty obvious: Size, electronics reliability compare to 35mm system. Resolution compare to other MF system.

 

MF is pushing to the other end because technology is marching and they have no choice to justify its existence given strong competition from 35mm system. Phase and hasselblad are going, there is no way Leica can come away with that. 

 

My two cents.   

[ynp]

I am patiently waiting for the Photokina and the news from Sinar. Leica bought Sinar for some reason and they  have already offered a (limited) integration with the 007.

My Sinar 54H is old but no PhaseOne back will be able to compete with my old Multi-shot back. The Hasselblad can. I expect Hasselblad will update their  MS backs with the new interface and connectivity, maybe by Photokina time. Than I will decide if I want to spend my money for a new back.

 

I do not believe that Leica will abandon the S, ever. The S was their technology demonstrator and only now, after the SL introduction, they have a more advanced system in their portfolio. Logically,  one shall expect some sort of the synergy from the Leica assets and I expect that they will share the technology within the group.

 

As a long time Sinar user, I remember the Sinar Modular system. I still have the Sinar-M shutter, which was an integral part of the M-Sustem, they also had  four Zeiss Autofocus lenses and a prism unit. I regretfully sold my Sinar-M AF lenses, but we decided to keep the shutter to use it on my P2/3. The shutter works just fine.

 

Because I remember the Sinar-M camera, I fantasise about a new modular system on the basis of the S and SL technology. Something like a Sinar-M shutter unit with the MS sensor inside, with Live View on the rear HiRes display, an Electronic viewfinder integrated, Live Video out, USB3 connectivity, than the adapters: one for a view camera, one for the Leica S lenses. 

 

I understand, that there may be no market for the Modular Mirrorless. But one can dream...

 

P.S. My wife said that my dream camera will look like a RED Cinema Camera. Lol

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[erlingmm]

 While it will be hard for some to give up the OVF, the advantages will be many. Much lower handlheld shutter speeds, better image quality and a larger shooting envelope. 

 

 

 

I hope Leica will never give up the OVF of the S, best finder in the world.

I have the SL, looking forward to the S adapter, but pure backup solution for me.

[349A]

"I hope Leica will never give up the OVF of the S, best finder in the world.

I have the SL, looking forward to the S adapter, but pure backup solution for me."

 

I agree. Its just what I think may happen. That's certainly the trend.

[ynp]

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From the interview of Hasselblad' CEO:

https://www.ephotozine.com/article/perry-oosting-on-the-hasselblad-h6d-29166

 

"What would fit is something aimed at the prosumer, which we see as the dedicated amateur, passionate enthusiast, semi-professional, already shooting with a DSLR. Someone who is looking to see what’s next for the photographer to get to the next level. Part of this audience already buys into Leica, and our first step would be to look at this area, and look at price and also portability. The new H6Ds we are launching have the best in class ergonomics in terms of handling, but they aren't the most portable."

 

He is talking about a compact MF solution, if I understand the interview correctly. Leica-S is already compact enough.

 

 

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[Paul J]

From the interview of Hasselblad' CEO:

https://www.ephotozine.com/article/perry-oosting-on-the-hasselblad-h6d-29166

 

"What would fit is something aimed at the prosumer, which we see as the dedicated amateur, passionate enthusiast, semi-professional, already shooting with a DSLR. Someone who is looking to see what’s next for the photographer to get to the next level. Part of this audience already buys into Leica, and our first step would be to look at this area, and look at price and also portability. The new H6Ds we are launching have the best in class ergonomics in terms of handling, but they aren't the most portable."

 

He is talking about a compact MF solution, if I understand the interview correctly. Leica-S is already compact enough.

 

 

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The new Hasselblad CEO is formidable and already doing great things for the company. This re-invigoraring of the market is going to be great for all photographers and I look forward to Leica's response, who in terms of a portable Medium Format system have an established footing and the upper hand - lets hope they lift their game and maintain it.

[Jon Warwick]

The new Hasselblad CEO is formidable and already doing great things for the company. This re-invigoraring of the market is going to be great for all photographers and I look forward to Leica's response, who in terms of a portable Medium Format system have an established footing and the upper hand - lets hope they lift their game and maintain it.

Yes, it really seems that Hassie under this new guy is getting the business focused back to its strengths. It will be interesting if Sinar is the missing link for Leica regarding digital MF, given it's been radio silence since the acquisition.

[tthorne]

Back to the topic! Wide Tilt Shift! That was the topic, right? Well, thats my story and I'm  sticking to it...

[hoppyman]

Would it be fair to say that we recognise that the global  market for medium format cameras is quite small even in comparison to Leica camera's overall market share? 
It seems to me that the market for the highest resolution, newest Hasselblad bodies for example would be only a smaller sub-set again? 
I just checked BHPhoto for comparison and they are suggesting 
H6D 100c USD 32995
S (Typ 007) USD 16900

I am well aware of course that they are different cameras with different capabilities. just trying to make the point that perhaps there remains a market for the current Leica product and other "cheaper" medium format options (including Hassleblad's lesser models)  and perhaps people may be less enthusiastic (at the price! ) should that kind of sensor technology be in any next S.
 Maybe just don't wish too hard for 100MP in the next S   

[Paul J]

Would it be fair to say that we recognise that the global  market for medium format cameras is quite small even in comparison to Leica camera's overall market share? 

It seems to me that the market for the highest resolution, newest Hasselblad bodies for example would be only a smaller sub-set again? 

I just checked BHPhoto for comparison and they are suggesting 

H6D 100c USD 32995

S (Typ 007) USD 16900

I am well aware of course that they are different cameras with different capabilities. just trying to make the point that perhaps there remains a market for the current Leica product and other "cheaper" medium format options (including Hassleblad's lesser models)  and perhaps people may be less enthusiastic (at the price! ) should that kind of sensor technology be in any next S.

 Maybe just don't wish too hard for 100MP in the next S

True in some regards, but the gap between 37 and 100MP is significant. also, I can pick up a CFV-50c back for about the same price as an S and it is a very attractive option particularly with rumours of Hasselblad renewing this platform. Judging by Hasselblad's aggressive re-energising, and talk of a smaller and cheaper Medium Format model, Leica really needs to consider picking up the pace.

[Paul J]

Edit - correction the CFV-50c CMOS back is cheaper than a 007 S

[349A]

Out of curiousty, what is the right number of pixels on a S sized sensor? The older "fat pixel" sensors offer something higher density small pixel sensors do not. Take a look at some samples of what the old digital backs were capable of under the right circumstances. I'm not saying that 60mp wont be an improvement, I do think you might give up something. Being that the sensor size will not increase, how many pixels is enough.

 

The CFV-50C is wonderful. Of course comparing the price of a digital back to a camera body is not apples to apples. I doubt Hassy is bringing back the V system if that is what you're thinking. The rumors seem to suggest a "compact" MF solution. SL type camera? I doubt they will do a optical rangefinder, if its an SLR it will be large... EVF is my guess. Very curious to see what they come out with. Whatever it is, I don't think Leica can pick up the pace. I would bet it takes 36-48 months from idea to production. If they see Hassy come with something amazing, you wont see an answer from Leica for a long time. But what does Leica have in the pipeline... I'd love to get into a back room!

[Jeff S]

Not just about MP, according to Leica (and David's article)...  http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/

 

Jeff

[erlingmm]

Not just about MP, according to Leica (and David's article)...  http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/

 

Jeff

 

 

I think this also is a very good article, dating back to the original S2, but still valid points:

 

Leica S2 against megapixel arms race

Irakly Shanidze

 

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3214761610/leica-s2-against-megapixel-arms-race

 

But marketingwise, people will still count megapixels as a prime measure of value....

[Paul J]

Not just about MP, according to Leica (and David's article)...  http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/

 

Jeff

It's a good sales pitch but I don't agree with it. Especially now with more recent developments.

[349A]

"But marketingwise, people will still count megapixels as a prime measure of value...."

 

Clearly! I believe its very misguided as well.

[Jeff S]

It's a good sales pitch but I don't agree with it. Especially now with more recent developments.

 

You don't agree that sensor design (as the article describes) can yield better results from the same number of MP in two different cameras?  So all MP are alike?

 

Jeff

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[Paul J]

You don't agree that sensor design (as the article describes) can yield better results from the same number of MP in two different cameras?  So all MP are alike?

 

Jeff

 

 

Up to a point, yes, of corse sensor design can trump. Not all MP are alike.

 

I see the difference in S v other 36-40MP systems, there is no denying how good it is. I certainly wouldn't be here and considering it otherwise.

 

But next to the existing 60-100MP medium format system, to argue the same would be crazy. No sales pitch will ever counter the sheer IQ, and resolution of these systems. Particularly when it comes to printing very large - interpolation is interpolation. It's a computer guessing, filling in gaps with maths, it's not the same as actual pixels and it's not adding any actual detail - just stretching what is there.

 

Use these systems for yourself and you will see the sales pitches from the facts.