Various 90mm's focus trouble

[rondeb]

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OK. So I stopped by Tamarkin and BH yesterday just to browse around and I tried 3 different 90mm's on the M8 for size. 2 Elmarits and 1 Summicron. The 2 I tried shooting with at Tamarkin front focused at least 6 inches! 2 of us shot and both got the same result. The other I shot with at BH showed similar results, though I didn't take as much time there.

The longest lens in my bag is the 50mm Voigt. Nokton. It seems to be fine even wide open. My other lenses - 35, 40, and 28 seem to be alright too. I did make rangefinder adjustment a couple months ago using the 50 as my guide, but I'm thinking my rangefinder is still off if these 90mm results are any indication.

I guess I'm asking forum members to give me some direction on whether I should trust the 90's front focusing more than my shorter lenses?

Thanks for the help,

Ron

[tashley]

OK. So I stopped by Tamarkin and BH yesterday just to browse around and I tried 3 different 90mm's on the M8 for size. 2 Elmarits and 1 Summicron. The 2 I tried shooting with at Tamarkin front focused at least 6 inches! 2 of us shot and both got the same result. The other I shot with at BH showed similar results, though I didn't take as much time there.

The longest lens in my bag is the 50mm Voigt. Nokton. It seems to be fine even wide open. My other lenses - 35, 40, and 28 seem to be alright too. I did make rangefinder adjustment a couple months ago using the 50 as my guide, but I'm thinking my rangefinder is still off if these 90mm results are any indication.

I guess I'm asking forum members to give me some direction on whether I should trust the 90's front focusing more than my shorter lenses?

Thanks for the help,

Ron

 

The only way to check this is to get either a 'trusted' M8 and try those lenses on it, or get a 'trusted' 90mm lens and try it on your M8. My experience this year is that there are badly adjusted lenses emerging from Solms. This is so very difficult to get to grips with that I have now sent one of my bodies plus 35 cron back to Solms to see which is off, but it was very interesting to have two bodies on which WATE, CV35, 50 Lux and 90 Macro Elmar all worked perfectly, but on which the 35 cron and the 28 cron had backfocus, quite aside from focus shift. FWIW I recently got a 75 Cron and it also works perfectly on the body I still have with me.

 

This could take you a while to work out :-(

 

Tim

[billh]

The only way to check this is to get either a 'trusted' M8 and try those lenses on it, or get a 'trusted' 90mm lens and try it on your M8. My experience this year is that there are badly adjusted lenses emerging from Solms. This is so very difficult to get to grips with that I have now sent one of my bodies plus 35 cron back to Solms to see which is off, but it was very interesting to have two bodies on which WATE, CV35, 50 Lux and 90 Macro Elmar all worked perfectly, but on which the 35 cron and the 28 cron had backfocus, quite aside from focus shift. FWIW I recently got a 75 Cron and it also works perfectly on the body I still have with me.

 

This could take you a while to work out :-(

 

Tim

 

Tim,

 

Will you let us know the results from Leica? I also sent my 50 f1.4asph back with my broken M8, and ordered a 28 Summicron and asked if they would make sure both focused correctly with the new/repaired M8. The 50 has back focused on both of my M8s, but my APO75 focuses perfect on them. It is very confusing and frustrating.

 

Bill

 

(by the way, did you post the seascape photo on the digital forum in the Leica group? If so, which lens did you use?)

[London Lad]

I am quite new to the M system. In Feb I 'treated' myself to a M8, 28/4, 50/1.4 and 90/4 all brand new.

 

After waiting till last week for the last of the lenses and filters to arrive I now find that none of my lenses focus properly. They all back focus and the 50mm is out at infinity as well. The only one that is usable at all is the 28mm and that's only due to its DOF.

 

The camera is still full of bugs even with the latest software.

 

The dealer won't change the M8 because I have registered it (had to to get the filters) and Leica HQ say that if the lenses need adjustment it will take 6 weeks plus!!!

 

Wish I hadn't 'treated' myself so well!!!

[tashley]

Tim,

 

Will you let us know the results from Leica? I also sent my 50 f1.4asph back with my broken M8, and ordered a 28 Summicron and asked if they would make sure both focused correctly with the new/repaired M8. The 50 has back focused on both of my M8s, but my APO75 focuses perfect on them. It is very confusing and frustrating.

 

Bill

 

(by the way, did you post the seascape photo on the digital forum in the Leica group? If so, which lens did you use?)

 

Hi Bill,

 

I certainly will report back - there's been a bit of a tendency for people not to believe that there are problems with currently shipping lenses on the M8 but I am now quite sure there is. My 50 Lux has however always behaved impeccably and is my favourite lens. Having two bodies helps in the sanity stakes but if my black one returns on good terms with the 35 cron but with a cold shoulder for any of the lenses it used to like, I really will spit nails.. I don't want one camera per lens!

 

That shot is mine - it's on my zenfolio site under Sussex Land & Seascapes and I have a 40" lambda print from a crop of it that is really rather nice. It was taken with a 24mm 2.8.

 

Best

 

Tim

[tashley]

I am quite new to the M system. In Feb I 'treated' myself to a M8, 28/4, 50/1.4 and 90/4 all brand new.

 

After waiting till last week for the last of the lenses and filters to arrive I now find that none of my lenses focus properly. They all back focus and the 50mm is out at infinity as well. The only one that is usable at all is the 28mm and that's only due to its DOF.

 

The camera is still full of bugs even with the latest software.

 

The dealer won't change the M8 because I have registered it (had to to get the filters) and Leica HQ say that if the lenses need adjustment it will take 6 weeks plus!!!

 

Wish I hadn't 'treated' myself so well!!!

 

So sorry to hear that - the classic is for just one or two lenses to have issues so you probably have a wrongly adjusted rangefinder. Who is your dealer...? Or should I guess...

 

Best

 

Tim

[wlaidlaw]

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My 90mm Elmarit-M f2.8 is spot on at close and middle distances and infinity or else it and the M8 are both off in the same way, which I suppose is always possible. However my Elmar-M 50 is pretty good too. It was the fact that these two lenses were OK that convinced me that the Noctilux had to go back to Solms for them to have another go at it. Given that lots of people on this forum (including me) have Zeiss ZM lenses, to the best of my memory, I have yet to see a complaint about one of these not focusing properly. It is therefore, pretty disturbing how many focusing complaints we are getting on the substantially more expensive Leica lenses.

 

I originally thought my Elmarit-M 90 was a bit soft, but I am now convinced that this was due to micro-camera shake. Now that I have accepted that I need to use somewhat higher shutter speeds, I think it is fine.

 

Attached taken with the 90 Elmarit with SF24D fill in flash with SFILL soft box.

 

Wilson

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[billh]

Hi Bill,

 

I certainly will report back - there's been a bit of a tendency for people not to believe that there are problems with currently shipping lenses on the M8 but I am now quite sure there is. My 50 Lux has however always behaved impeccably and is my favourite lens. Having two bodies helps in the sanity stakes but if my black one returns on good terms with the 35 cron but with a cold shoulder for any of the lenses it used to like, I really will spit nails.. I don't want one camera per lens!

 

That shot is mine - it's on my zenfolio site under Sussex Land & Seascapes and I have a 40" lambda print from a crop of it that is really rather nice. It was taken with a 24mm 2.8.

 

Best

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim,

 

I have seen those posts questioning those of us with these focus problems - maybe they can’t see so well, or shoot only wide angle lenses at infinity and f11...I am hoping to have at least 3 lenses that focus accurately, the 28 f2.0, 50 f1.4ASPH, and my APO 75 which had been perfect on the previous two M8s. If I’m lucky, maybe my Noctilux will be spot on too. Brent told me his latest M8 is accurate with all of his lenses, so perhaps they have taken the time to correct this problem. Steven Lee professes to be very concerned if the M8s have any issues, and as a long time Leica user, he would surely consider these gross focus errors to be a major issue. For me they are a far greater problem than the cyan corners or magenta blues and blacks (because I can correct the IR bit with a filter).

 

Your photo is spectacular - I can see why you made the large print. I asked which lens you used because I was afraid you were going to say it was with the 24mm lens. I know I am going to end up buying one. By the way, how is the focus accuracy, or is it so wide it isn’t noticeable if there is some back focus?

 

Bill

[tashley]

Hi Tim,

 

I have seen those posts questioning those of us with these focus problems - maybe they can’t see so well, or shoot only wide angle lenses at infinity and f11...I am hoping to have at least 3 lenses that focus accurately, the 28 f2.0, 50 f1.4ASPH, and my APO 75 which had been perfect on the previous two M8s. If I’m lucky, maybe my Noctilux will be spot on too. Brent told me his latest M8 is accurate with all of his lenses, so perhaps they have taken the time to correct this problem. Steven Lee professes to be very concerned if the M8s have any issues, and as a long time Leica user, he would surely consider these gross focus errors to be a major issue. For me they are a far greater problem than the cyan corners or magenta blues and blacks (because I can correct the IR bit with a filter).

 

Your photo is spectacular - I can see why you made the large print. I asked which lens you used because I was afraid you were going to say it was with the 24mm lens. I know I am going to end up buying one. By the way, how is the focus accuracy, or is it so wide it isn’t noticeable if there is some back focus?

 

Bill

 

 

Hi Bill,

 

Yup, there's some denial going around but...

 

Thanks for the comment about the shot. There's a long story attached to it in that I asked months ago on the DPreview forum whether the (and this is very picky) apparent lower resolution in the distance on the left of the shot was due to far detail being beyond the camera+lens's resolving power. As it happens, I later found that the lens was a tad smeary on the left margins but not on the right. Another poster had the same issue. So I traded the lens. It's a damned damned fine piece of glass but mine was a little off in this way though I found the focus accuracy good. There were a few shots in my Viareggio series (the girl in the skeleton outfit for example) where I was really sure I had nailed the focus but it was still not sharp, but that seemed only to happen at a mid-distance. I rarely used it close and its far distance was great.

 

But on reflection I am thinking of losing my WATE (the CV15 is so good) and re-purchasing a non-Friday 24mm 2.8. I got some great shots with it and to my eye it is the most neutral Leica lens I have used. Sharp as hell (except for the left hand edge!) but not brutal, great contrast but not too much so, and what I can only describe as a very neutral bokeh. It also has a very neutral colour rendition.

 

But this is, in a way, angels on pinheads: even a 'not quite right' version was still very good, just not quite as good as it could be. I'll leave the 'should be's' to wiser counsel...

 

Best

 

t

[colorflow]

Here is how my lenses checked out wide open at 6 or 7 feet:

 

APO 90 front focuses by more than 2 inches,

Lux 75 is right on,

Lux 50 asph back focuses by about 3 inches

Lux 50 classic v2 front focuses by more than 5 inches

Cron 28 front focuses by 6 inches.

Cron 50 front focuses by 3 inches

Cron 90 pre-asph backfocuses by 3 inches

 

So what's the verdict? I don't think it is the M8 since these lenses are all over the place. And these are not just new lenses coming out of Solms. Some came out of Wetzler or Canada decades ago. I think the problem have always been there, only we were not able to scrutinize so easily.

 

Sent my classic Lux 50 to a third party and it's near focus checked out to within 3 inches on the collimater which is supposed to be fine. Besides adjusting nearfocus is more complex than backfocus, so I'll just have to learn to compensate.

 

The Lux 50 ASPH was sent to NJ for adjustment. Still waiting for their answer.

 

The APO 90 is difficult to focus. I am giving myself a little time to learn it and compensate.

 

All the other lenses do not present a problem in real life. For me anyway.

 

Alan

[Ben Tanner]

Hi Guys, I have been fighting this focus problem since Dec. 06. I got my new M8 and quickly ran a test with my 28mm,35mm,50mm,&90mm. (all are Mid 1980s) and they sharp on both my M6s. However on the M8 they are soft, and the longer the focal length the softer they get. Talked to the Leica rep. and he said to send the camera and the lenes back to Leica for testing, The results were, Leica said my lenes were out and they needed to be shimmed! I don't get it! If they out, than why are they sharp on my film cameras????I finally returned the camera for a refund. I would really like to get another M8 and make it work somehow but I don't want to go thru this whole deal again. I see all these great images made with the M8 on the forum, and I've talked to several of the main people on the forum, and they said their getting great results. Whats the deal!!!

[tashley]

Hi Guys, I have been fighting this focus problem since Dec. 06. I got my new M8 and quickly ran a test with my 28mm,35mm,50mm,&90mm. (all are Mid 1980s) and they sharp on both my M6s. However on the M8 they are soft, and the longer the focal length the softer they get. Talked to the Leica rep. and he said to send the camera and the lenes back to Leica for testing, The results were, Leica said my lenes were out and they needed to be shimmed! I don't get it! If they out, than why are they sharp on my film cameras????I finally returned the camera for a refund. I would really like to get another M8 and make it work somehow but I don't want to go thru this whole deal again. I see all these great images made with the M8 on the forum, and I've talked to several of the main people on the forum, and they said their getting great results. Whats the deal!!!

 

Honest answer? With some of my lenses, I only posted the ones that worked, whether through DOF, luck, or intimate knowledge of the lens and compensatory focus. But hey, that's our job.

 

No?

 

t

[Alberti]

OK. So I stopped by Tamarkin and BH yesterday just to browse around and I tried 3 different 90mm's on the M8 for size. 2 Elmarits and 1 Summicron. The 2 I tried shooting with at Tamarkin front focused at least 6 inches! 2 of us shot and both got the same result. The other I shot with at BH showed similar results, though I didn't take as much time there.

The longest lens in my bag is the 50mm Voigt. Nokton. It seems to be fine even wide open. My other lenses - 35, 40, and 28 seem to be alright too. I did make rangefinder adjustment a couple months ago using the 50 as my guide, but I'm thinking my rangefinder is still off if these 90mm results are any indication.

I guess I'm asking forum members to give me some direction on whether I should trust the 90's front focusing more than my shorter lenses?

Thanks for the help,

Ron

 

Ron,

have you seriously been using the Voigtländer Nokton 50mm 1:1,5 - M-mount on the M8 camera and forced the rangefinder into a non-existing 50 cm range? Just a thought. Methinks that destroys any fine mechanics.

My M8 is far easier to focus than my M7. My old 90mm Elmarit lens showed back focussing at times (not consistent) but then it had dropped several years ago into a permanent state of concussion. Alas, lenses are prone to the laws of gravity. I now have a marvelous Elmar 90-M with on the spot focus.

Regards albert

[rondeb]

Ron,

have you seriously been using the Voigtländer Nokton 50mm 1:1,5 - M-mount on the M8 camera and forced the rangefinder into a non-existing 50 cm range? Just a thought. Methinks that destroys any fine mechanics.

My M8 is far easier to focus than my M7. My old 90mm Elmarit lens showed back focussing at times (not consistent) but then it had dropped several years ago into a permanent state of concussion. Alas, lenses are prone to the laws of gravity. I now have a marvelous Elmar 90-M with on the spot focus.

Regards albert

Thanks for the comment. When I made adjustments, I did so very cautiously and I'm not sure what you mean by "forced the rangefinder into 50 cm range?"? What is 50 cm range. Can you or someone else explain some more for me?

Thanks again,

Ron

[tashley]

Thanks for the comment. When I made adjustments, I did so very cautiously and I'm not sure what you mean by "forced the rangefinder into 50 cm range?"? What is 50 cm range. Can you or someone else explain some more for me?

Thanks again,

Ron

 

Ron, the RF on M cameras has a closest focus of 0.7 metre. Any lenses that can focus closer than that do so by guesswork. I think the suggestion here was you might have tried to force the RF mechanism to allow you to focus as close as 50cm, which might indeed cause it to choke...

 

Tim

[billh]

Hi Guys, I have been fighting this focus problem since Dec. 06. I got my new M8 and quickly ran a test with my 28mm,35mm,50mm,&90mm. (all are Mid 1980s) and they sharp on both my M6s. However on the M8 they are soft, and the longer the focal length the softer they get. Talked to the Leica rep. and he said to send the camera and the lenes back to Leica for testing, The results were, Leica said my lenes were out and they needed to be shimmed! I don't get it! If they out, than why are they sharp on my film cameras????I finally returned the camera for a refund. I would really like to get another M8 and make it work somehow but I don't want to go thru this whole deal again. I see all these great images made with the M8 on the forum, and I've talked to several of the main people on the forum, and they said their getting great results. Whats the deal!!!

 

Hi Ben,

 

I don’t understand either. I do not buy the “We just didn’t notice on film” bit. Most of us used very fine grain BW and color as well as the high speed films, and when you focus on a place like the eyes, and the actual plane of focus is three inches behind the eye, there is no way you do not notice, regardless whether it is film or digital. What has always puzzled me is why some lenses (my APO75 f2.0 for example) are focusing perfectly, while the others are all off to varying degrees. Is the focusing mechanism in the M8 different in any way - design or materials - than the film Ms? Perhaps more should be made of this so Leica pays attention and gets this problem, which in my opinion is at least the equal of any of the other M8 issues, fixed. The fact that Brent finally (I believe this is his 4th M8) has one that works and focuses correctly gives me hope they may finally be on top of this problem...

 

Bill

[tom0511]

Maybe I am lucky but my 90s seem to focus spot on (90/2.8 and 90macro).

If I was buying a new lens I would check it and see if it works on your particular body. If not, exchange or send in for calibration (as I did with my 50/1.4asph which now works great)

Once you have a lens which works perfect on your camera-never give it away.

Good luck, Tom

[Ben Tanner]

I had a reputable person tell me that if the lenses were shimmed, that they needed to be shimmed to my M8 body.(not someone elses) So, what happens when I buy a second body???????? Do I need to buy another set of Lenses???? Is there that much difference from body to body? Leica cameras and lenses are the best there is, with the tightest tolerances of any camera company. These lenses should be dead on!!! And sharper than any reflex system on the market.

[wlaidlaw]

I had a reputable person tell me that if the lenses were shimmed, that they needed to be shimmed to my M8 body.(not someone elses) So, what happens when I buy a second body???????? Do I need to buy another set of Lenses???? Is there that much difference from body to body? Leica cameras and lenses are the best there is, with the tightest tolerances of any camera company. These lenses should be dead on!!! And sharper than any reflex system on the market.

 

Exactly Ben - having to match a specific lens to a specific body is a total negation of everything the interchangeable lens system is about. All lenses should be collimated to a set standard as should all bodies. Anyone who says anything else is talking patent nonsense.

 

Wilson

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[London Lad]

I am quite new to the M system. In Feb I 'treated' myself to a M8, 28/4, 50/1.4 and 90/4 all brand new.

 

After waiting till last week for the last of the lenses and filters to arrive I now find that none of my lenses focus properly. They all back focus and the 50mm is out at infinity as well. The only one that is usable at all is the 28mm and that's only due to its DOF.

 

The camera is still full of bugs even with the latest software.

 

The dealer won't change the M8 because I have registered it (had to to get the filters) and Leica HQ say that if the lenses need adjustment it will take 6 weeks plus!!!

 

Wish I hadn't 'treated' myself so well!!!

 

So sorry to hear that - the classic is for just one or two lenses to have issues so you probably have a wrongly adjusted rangefinder. Who is your dealer...? Or should I guess...

 

Best

 

Tim

 

A bit of an update:

 

Today my dealer, Artaphoto of Nice, who has been exceptionally helpful throughout, exchanged my M8.

 

The replacement camera focuses spot on will all my lenses!

 

Close up, mid range and infinity snaps in perfectly as well. One small problem , one of the segments of the LED viewfinder display is missing! I can live with that for the moment, after 4 months its so nice to have a camera that I can take pictures with at last.