jaapv Posted March 26, 2016 Share #41 Posted March 26, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) My view is that the M 262 is the M camera of choice at the moment. The rationale for Live View for me was always the promise of being able to focus more accurately than was possible on an M8 or M9, especially those which had never been back to Leica to benefit from the refined alignment process. As it turned out, the rangefinder accuracy of the M240 was improved to such an extent that Live View became redundant for traditional M photography though of course it does convey benefits for longer and wider lenses and for macro. Leica also painted themselves into a corner using a level of EVF technology which was obsolescent before it was even shipped with no upgrade path. Once you do Live View, video comes out in the wash even though it's of little interest for many (most?) M photographers. So, I like the fact the M 262 really does concentrate on the essentials and the lighter weight and lower cost are a bonus. It will be interesting to see, in this Photokina year, whether there is another new M body or whether the focus is shifting so much towards the SL that the M is beginning to be marginalised. I'm waiting with interest to see what the R solution turns out to be and whether the R to SL adapter offers anything more than a simple lens adapter. That might push me towards it because I find R lenses, of which I have amassed a modest collection of 10 or 12, are not great to use on an M. In the meantime, as someone who is used to carrying a couple of big Nikons and 3 or four lenses in a backpack, any M, not matter how heavy, is a welcome relief. Not my choice - I really appreciate LV and Video. No interest in using LV "to focus more accurately". The optical rangefinder is plenty accurate for me. I appreciate the versatility. Surely this is subjective? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 Hi jaapv, Take a look here M typ 262... weight... conspiracy theory needed?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marchyman Posted March 26, 2016 Share #42 Posted March 26, 2016 Yes, it is subjective. I own the M 262. I also own the Q. The only time I ever care about live view on the Q is when the camera is on a tripod and I'm using macro mode. Since I do not own (and don't planning on owning) a macro lens for the 262 live view is not something I'll miss. Especially since I've never owned a 240. Video on an M and the Q doesn't interest me. I have other cameras for video. Those are my personal choices. They are not choices for everyone. Chose the camera you like. I like my 262 (and my Q). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen.w Posted March 28, 2016 Share #43 Posted March 28, 2016 In that case one less buyer here, though I find the concept of the M262 perfect. The experiment with zinc 30 years ago and now aluminium simply disregards Leicaner. And it flaws conclusions about the model variations of the next M. The other day, I walked away from the M 262 that was ordered in for me - strange to say, but when I took it out the box, without the battery, it felt disconcertingly light, and the top plate felt less tactile than the other Ms (dim and digital) that I've used. These are small things, but they were enough to put me off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted March 28, 2016 Share #44 Posted March 28, 2016 This is just imagination, I think. Take a M9 without battery and lens an You will have the same feeling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen.w Posted March 28, 2016 Share #45 Posted March 28, 2016 Well, the M 262 is 5g lighter than the M9, and the M 262 battery is about twice as heavy as the M9 battery - you do the math Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted March 28, 2016 Share #46 Posted March 28, 2016 You talked about feeling, not about math. What was Your feeling, when You took a M9? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen.w Posted March 28, 2016 Share #47 Posted March 28, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes, I have an M9. I had it with me and held them side by side. I decided to keep the M9 and see what the next M brings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bencoyote Posted March 28, 2016 Share #48 Posted March 28, 2016 The other day, I walked away from the M 262 that was ordered in for me - strange to say, but when I took it out the box, without the battery, it felt disconcertingly light, and the top plate felt less tactile than the other Ms (dim and digital) that I've used. These are small things, but they were enough to put me off. We had an interesting discussion that covered this topic a few months ago on another thread that I can't find right now. Overall there are two distinctly different feelings regarding this and to a certain degree the difference between the people who hold them is somewhat generational. One position, I call this the "I like trains" approach is that heavy implies: strong, stable, well built, durable. The heft means that they didn't skimp on the materials trying to make it cheap. However light implies: cheap, flimsy, and fragile. The lack of heft means that the manufacturer was cutting corners and trimming away the extra material to reduce costs. Favorite materials: steel, brass, gold. The other position that I call "I like airplanes" is that heavy implies old, poorly engineered, unrefined. On the other hand light and thin can only be achieved through elegant engineering and careful material choice. Light means that, you have considered every choice of material at every location and chosen the right one for that part. Then you have worked it for perfect fit, and minimal material use - not to reduce the cost of materials. The material costs are dwarfed by the extra time needed to fabricate the precision parts. Light implies high tech, and well engineered. Favorite materials: aluminum, titanium, magnesium, carbon fiber and beryllium. I really have no opinion about Brass vs. Zinc back in the 80's on the M6. There seem to be quite a few M6's still around and so that suggests to me that it couldn't have been that bad of a choice. Pennies are evidently zinc and they seem to hold up pretty well. However, if I could carry 90 fewer grams around by swapping the brass top of my M-P for one made out of Aluminum, I would do it. And if Leica wanted to set my heart aflutter, then they would make a new Titanium version focused not on plating it onto Zinc or whatever but putting the M on a diet so that it is a couple of hundreds of grams lighter. There marketing material would be something like: "This is not a special edition camera for collectors to be put on a shelf. This is the camera for someone who carries their camera everywhere they go all day. It is designed to take the bumps and scrapes that come with that. This is the camera for people who choose summarits over summiluxes when they can so their bags are lighter. A person whose right arm is notably stronger than their left. In addition to being more costly, it takes 50 extra hours to machine the Titanium parts down to the bare minimum to make a rugged reliable camera but it is worth it when you are carrying it around on your next week long trip through the Andes." Then it would have someone like me (or Mark Wallace) jogging down a trail with a headlamp and scrambling up some mountain with a summit pack and the Leica M slung over our shoulder just to get the ultimate sunrise shot. Or some wiry street photographer saying, "To get the shot, some times you have to be quick and nimble" and then having him quickly dart across a street to get something. The most interesting thing for me is that when we discussed it previously there was a clear generational divide between the "I like trains" people and the "I like airplanes" people. My best guess is that somewhere between the 40's and 80's there was a clear cheapening of consumer goods by lightening them to reduce materials use. Look at the case of a blender made in the 60's vs. one made in the 90's. So having lived through that experience the association between helf and quality was made. However, for us youngsters we grew up with mobile technology and the most expensive things are thinner and lighter. You have the big heavy cheap plastic laptop or you have the ultralight thin MacBook Air. The most next generation of cell phones are thinner and lighter. So the association is flipped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 29, 2016 Share #49 Posted March 29, 2016 Well, the M 262 is 5g lighter than the M9, and the M 262 battery is about twice as heavy as the M9 battery - you do the math Well, wouldn't that mean that by putting that 'heavy' battery in the M262 (instead of just holding it without), you would have made it much more comparable to your M9 (with its lighter battery installed)? You do plan on using a battery while taking pics, right? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen.w Posted March 29, 2016 Share #50 Posted March 29, 2016 Well, wouldn't that mean that by putting that 'heavy' battery in the M262 (instead of just holding it without), you would have made it much more comparable to your M9 (with its lighter battery installed)? You do plan on using a battery while taking pics, right? Jeff Erm, yes. As I said, it was just an initial impression of lack of heft, which I couldn't shake, together with the strange, less tactile (or at least less M-like) feel of the top plate. I should add that I realise that makes me sound like an impossible customer, and in truth I was looking for reasons not to spend the kind of money involved on what are really quite incremental improvements over the M9. Anyway, didn't mean to summon the Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 29, 2016 Share #51 Posted March 29, 2016 So you didn't fool us, but you fooled you. Whatever works. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted March 29, 2016 Share #52 Posted March 29, 2016 So you didn't fool us, but you fooled you. Whatever works. Jeff You HAVE to love that reply! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernstk Posted March 29, 2016 Share #53 Posted March 29, 2016 I agree about the EVF. I have the M-P and one upgrade that I wish they'd done between the M and the M-P which would have made the -P so much nicer is if they'd changed to the T's EVF/GPS. i sort of wish Leica would make a 240 Graham Chapman upgrade special edition. "Simplify, then add lightness" which replaces the brass top with Aluminum or Titanium or Berryium or somethings like that. I think you mean Colin Chapman. Of Lotus cars. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted March 29, 2016 Share #54 Posted March 29, 2016 Probably. But I was hoping he meant Graham Chapman. Of Monty Python. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bencoyote Posted March 29, 2016 Share #55 Posted March 29, 2016 Probably. But I was hoping he meant Graham Chapman. Of Monty Python. LOL That would be the Titanium Monochrom special edition where they oxidize the Ti into rainbow of colors just to be funny and ironic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted April 2, 2016 Share #56 Posted April 2, 2016 You are missing nothing , in fact what you are not missing is brain cells. The amount of silly little picky things some people go on and on about is just unreal. 100 grams of weight, the sound of a shutter, 7mm of body thickness, placement of a silly button, it just goes on and on, today I have a guy in my town posted on Kijiji, wants to trade a perfectly good M240 plus a brand new 28mm summicron aspherical for a new in box M262. His logic is that he does not need the live view and movie feature . As if the M240 forces him to use those features. This obsession that Leica users have over the bloody sound of the shutter, or the 50 grams of weight??? I just do not get it. I have owned over a 100 cameras in my life I have yet to put one on a scale. There is no scale needed, just use a M240 next to a M9 and film MP and the differences are obvious. The M240 pushed it a tad too far and lost what I perceive as LeicaM-ness (yes, this is subjective). Just sold my M240 which I had for two years and hardly used as the M9 simply felt better in the hand. A M262 might be my next purchase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlindstrom Posted April 3, 2016 Share #57 Posted April 3, 2016 The M240 always felt heavy in hand. Maybe it was placebo knowing the weight increase after M9, I don't know.. but I do know I didn't like lugging it around. Now the new M262 is a different story, it feels very natural in hand. Basically it just feels like a true successor to M9 in every way. So to me, the weight difference is there and noticeable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted April 3, 2016 Share #58 Posted April 3, 2016 Some people perceive no important difference in size or weight between an M and an SL. Some have no problem using a Noctilux because to them it isn't all that big really. Some perceive an M240 to be bigger than an M9. Some call for M6 dimensions and use half-cases, thumbs-up, soft-shutter releases and other body-building steroids on their Ms. Leica designers obviously need bi-lingual tape measures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted April 3, 2016 Share #59 Posted April 3, 2016 Some people perceive no important difference in size or weight between an M and an SL. Some have no problem using a Noctilux because to them it isn't all that big really. Some perceive an M240 to be bigger than an M9. Some call for M6 dimensions and use half-cases, thumbs-up, soft-shutter releases and other body-building steroids on their Ms. Leica designers obviously need bi-lingual tape measures. Well Peter - what a fine post. Me? I like live view, but only because I always carry a WATE (for that wide angle moment) but rarely an EVF. (what's video?) I don't give a damn about 100 gms here or there . . . but I'd love the camera to be the same size as an M6 (and my M cameras are always naked - no half cases or thumbs ups). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumolux Posted April 3, 2016 Share #60 Posted April 3, 2016 BENCOYOTE "...You have the big heavy cheap plastic laptop or you have the ultralight thin MacBook Air. The most next generation of cell phones are thinner and lighter. So the association is flipped.... " You are spot on. Watches, cars, bicycles today: you pay extravagantly for the lighter object, and lightness has become a keyword of many luxury products today. Is a camera considered a luxury product in this day and age? Maybe.... I think the disdain for lightness some of us here have mostly comes from those approaching Leica digital after having long experience with Leica film cameras. It is just hard not to feel something missing when you pick up a digital Leica after the heft of a MP or M4, even if the difference is not 'major'. It is also hard (at least for me) to accept that my digital Leica will not be used more than a rather limited timeframe, and my MP at the same price will still be taking pictures in 2055, whether I am still around or not (as long as there is film at least). Times change, and all we can do is get our heads around it, and most important of all: take pictures, which is what it is all about (really). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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