FILCA A, B and C, Where's D

[TomB_tx]

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I'm sure I've seen reference that when the Leica II Model D was introduced it was provided with 2(?) pre-loaded model D cassettes, and also the latch for the bottom plate did not have the piece that opened/closed the FILCA cassettes. I suspect that the model D was really the Leitz-Agfa and was loaded with Agfa film, perhaps with an agreement between the companies where these 2 pre-loaded cassettes were a great deal from Agfa to Leitz, provided the II Model D had to use that cassette style - so Agfa expected a captive market for their film. However, before long Leitz changed the latch on the camera to use the FILCA, and provided parts (or service) to update the "special" cameras that needed the D cassette.

That would explain the disappearance of the FILCA C, and subsequent dropping of the D with reappearance of the compatible FILCA B.

[willeica]

2 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

I'm sure I've seen reference that when the Leica II Model D was introduced it was provided with 2(?) pre-loaded model D cassettes, and also the latch for the bottom plate did not have the piece that opened/closed the FILCA cassettes. I suspect that the model D was really the Leitz-Agfa and was loaded with Agfa film, perhaps with an agreement between the companies where these 2 pre-loaded cassettes were a great deal from Agfa to Leitz, provided the II Model D had to use that cassette style - so Agfa expected a captive market for their film. However, before long Leitz changed the latch on the camera to use the FILCA, and provided parts (or service) to update the "special" cameras that needed the D cassette.

That would explain the disappearance of the FILCA C, and subsequent dropping of the D with reappearance of the compatible FILCA B.

 Thanks, this sounds logical. I have a lot of cameras and cassettes from this period, including the one I mentioned in my previous post. Someday when I have the time I will take out some of my Is, IIs and IIIs from about 1930 to 1933 and see what works with what. I will report the results here. Somebody has asked on the No105 thread about the cassettes for the 0 Series. I asked Ottmar Michaely about these last Saturday and he confirmed that these were rare even by the late 1920s. The 0 series was never a production camera, of course.

I would still love to know what this writing in German says and I may post the photo on the German Sammler Forum to see if I can get some help there.

William 

[AndreasG]

Dear Will,

please see attached the German transcript and a rough translation into English.

Andreas

 

 

Cassette.pdf

[willeica]

3 hours ago, AndreasG said:

Dear Will,

please see attached the German transcript and a rough translation into English.

Andreas

 

 

Cassette.pdf 44.96 kB · 5 downloads

Thanks Andreas

This all makes absolute sense, but I have to pull out a lot of cameras and FILCAS to check it fully. Some of this relates to what Tom has said above about a latch to open cassettes. It seems that the feature was introduced on the standardised cameras marked with an '0'. 

From about SN 60,000 all interchangeable cameras were standardised and had the 0 mark on the mounting ring. Leica introduced  a new latch for opening cassettes and introduced cassettes which could be opened by means of that latch. It may well be that the FILCA with a 'stroke' ( I have some with a curved mark on the side, which may be the 'stroke') was the first one with compatibility. Then the FILCA C was introduced on 1 May 1931, but by 27 June 1931 a new latch was introduced for the D cassette, which eventually became the Leitz Agfa cassette. Also from 9 May 1931 only cassettes which could use the latch fitted to 0 marked cameras were supplied. From July 1931, the D cassette was supplied. All of this was before the II Model D was supplied and the next time I am back in the Archive, I will cross check with the delivery book registers themselves, particularly as regards standardised cameras. I can't be 100% sure, as I did not note it fully, but I believe this writing was inside the cover of the delivery register for 1931. I was looking at two books for 1931 and 1932.

In the meantime, I will check with a group of cameras in my collection which include Standardised I Model Cs, I Model As which have been standardised and a group of early II Model Ds. I need to compare the working of the latch on those cameras with various FILCAs which I have, including Bs (with and without the stroke), Cs and a Leitz Agfa cassette, to see how the lock/unlock process works with them. 

During this period there were an immense number of changes ( interchangeable lenses, standardisation and rangefinder coupling and other features within a period of two years) happening rapidly to the Leica camera and Barnack and his team were working at a frenetic pace. Looking at this handwriting it seems to have been even more frenetic than we had thought. This also brings into focus Barnack's philosophy of continually testing and retesting and improving the camera. That is why it is very difficult to find two early Leicas that are exactly the same.

Thanks for that translation, which could not have been easy. I will post the results of my tests here and I will also cross check with Lars Netopil who has probably seen this book before. 

The most fascinating thing about studying vintage Leicas is that, just when you think you know everything, something else always pops up which contradicts or adds to what you already thought was the case. That is why the Leica Archives are so important and need to be more available to vintage enthusiasts. I showed the people at the archives how the LHSA online archives system works on my iPad and they were hugely impressed, so maybe there is a way forward through some kind of cooperation.

William 

Edited June 18, 2022 by willeica

[jpattison]

3 copies of the Vith book here...

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/leica-handbook/author/vith-fritz/

John

[willeica]

48 minutes ago, jpattison said:

3 copies of the Vith book here...

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/leica-handbook/author/vith-fritz/

John

Thanks John

There was a copy of this in a leather bound cover in the Leica Classic Store in Wetzlar when I was there on 10th June, but it was only for reference and not for sale . The note , which I saw on the same day, in the delivery book in the Archives adds confirmation that the Leica FILCA C was only in production for a very short time and it gives us dates. I am going to check all of this against the registers when I am next back in Wetzlar, probably in October 2023 with the LHSA Group. In the meantime I am going to do some checking against items in my own collection.

William

[Pyrogallol]

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Just come across this reference to the “D” cassettes in Leica News and Technique for May/June 1937.

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[jpattison]

Cassette City Arizona...*

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_B53.html

 

John

(* Reginald Perrin fans will understand)