Oh the heart ache... Bad news on the wide tilt/shift front

[tthorne]

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This isn't the end all be all, but I was speaking with my Leica rep today (not the dealer but the actual rep from Leica) and he told me that the 30mm tilt/shift or any wort of wide tilt/shift is not going to happen. This rep is highly knowledgeable, extremely friendly, and has been with Leica for a very long time. He is someone I trust and respect very much. Now, lets understand a few things here.

 

1. If it was actually in the cards, he wouldn't tell me anyway because he is a professional and confidentiality is something he respects being the stand up guy that he is. 

 

2. As long as he has been with Leica, he still may not know exactly what is coming down the pipeline in these regards and at this time. We had a great conversation, but understandably this does not set things in stone. 

 

3. I left him with a standing offer to wash all the vehicles of the employees at Wetzlar if they would please, please make this lens, so you never know when foul weather might give cause to take me up on that offer in Germany. 

 

and 

 

4. He and everyone els over there is well aware that I am going to keep talking about it and that my spirit is truly unbreakable, so they may bend to my will just to get me to leave them alone about it at some point. 

 

Anyhow, although my heart sunk when I heard this news, it is always good to see my friend and discuss photography with him, so there is a tradeoff. 

[Justalex]

I don't understand they Canon can make the incredible 17 and 24mm TSE but Leica can't. Schneider make wide angle tilt/shift but I've never one in person. Why Leica chose only to use the 120mm is beyond me!

[rsmphoto]

Not the best news if it's accurate, but who's to know for sure. I'd assume the r&d cost vs actual sales might be less than ideal, but.....

 

.... if no 30mm T/S for the S, certainly a 24 or 21 T/S for the SL might be a proper alternative. Seriously, there should be far, far more SL owners than S as the year(s) progress.

[tthorne]

From the discussion we had, I got the impression that Leica feels the lens may be too much of a niche product. This struct me as odd since Leica as a whole is not really the mass produced something for everybody brand. Furthermore, medium format is even more of a niche than Leica itself. So a niche within a niche seems fine, but the line seems to be drawn at a niche within an niche within a niche.

 

Sad as it makes me, it does make sense, the concern I mean. I think Schneider had already made that 120mm and Leica re-branded it, similar to what they did with the 28mm R PC lens. When it comes to the tooling though, I am not sure Leica has ever gone down that road with such a lens, so it may not be their cup of tea. 

 

The argument to be made here of course is that such a lack in this department really keeps digital back systems in play as a dominant force in digital medium format. Personally, I am not a fan of that type of system at all, but that does not eliminate the value and flexibility that they do offer. I will be very happy with my S007 and assorted lenses, but I was really hoping to pick up an S 006 as a backup. As of now, it looks like the A7R2 and Canon TSE lenses must remain the backup until I can put together a Cambo/Rodenstock/Hasselblad tech camera. That, along with the S 007 looks like it will cover all my needs. 

 

Truthfully, I would rather spend the money with Leica, but we don't always get what we want.

[jaapv]

Couldn't it have to do with Leica's interest in  Sinar?

[albertknappmd]

It really comes down to the economics... Simply put is there a chance to make and market this lens profitably?

I suspect that the powers in Wetzlar are not sanguine regarding the prospects of a WA TS.

Albert    

[tthorne]

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Couldn't it have to do with Leica's interest in  Sinar?

 

 

That is not a bad point at all, however, why sacrifice the flexibility of a system they have invested so much into? I have seen an S, by the way, on a Sinar camera system being used as a digital back. The problem is that this can not be done with wide lenses on that system, thus no overlap in that regards if they were to come out with a 30mm T/S. Also, while others may disagree, I feel like the S is a most elegant solution in it's handling and form factor, which is one of the reasons I favor it over the traditional digital back system. Even if they could make a Sinar Wide option available and compatible with the S register, it seems sort of counter productive to the design and the intention of the S. 

 

Regardless, Leica gave us some really great choices in focal lengths for the S. The system being new to me, I feel like I come in at a great time where we not only have an excellent range from ultra wide to telephoto, but the optical quality is just top notch. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE getting my way, and a wide T/S lens would be right in my sweet spot, but the S was going to happen for me either way, and I am thrilled to be able to have one. 

[tthorne]

It really comes down to the economics... Simply put is there a chance to make and market this lens profitably?

I suspect that the powers in Wetzlar are not sanguine regarding the prospects of a WA TS.

Albert    

 

Yes sir, this makes the utmost sense to me. Perhaps we should organize a massive Pre-Pre-Order on the lens, and then if we could demonstrate a sizable number of people wanting to get in line, enough so to make it profitable per Leica's standards, then maybe, just maybe. 

[Guest]

Truth be told the landscape photographer is not offered much by the S system...

 

Rather continue with 37 MP and fast file handling than up to a higher sensor MP count.

 

Fashion portrait and travel is emphasized by the Leica focus with the S ... wide TS will not

fit the profile ... until someone employs one to do edgy seminudes of models for a fashion 

shoot.

 

I love the S and have done a bunch of landscapes with the camera but if you shoot large 

need to do TS or long exposures you may have to look at another venue.

 

Bling, baubles, asthenic models with cross processed files ... guaranteed exposure on 

the S Magazine.

 

And that is OK as long as you understand the ground rules ... and why the small MF

chip was chosen in the first place.

 

We are now able to see files from a 100 MP sensor ... and all of the inherent problems

with color cast. Just a matter of personal preference ... Leica will not be all things to all

comers ... nor should we expect them to modify their business plan in order to indulge our 

pet desires.

 

I doubt if the world of Art will be found deficient 50 years from now due to the lack of a 

Leica S TS wide. 

 

As the song stated... "Love the one your with" ....

 

Bob

[tthorne]

Truth be told the landscape photographer is not offered much by the S system...

 

Rather continue with 37 MP and fast file handling than up to a higher sensor MP count.

 

Fashion portrait and travel is emphasized by the Leica focus with the S ... wide TS will not

fit the profile ... until someone employs one to do edgy seminudes of models for a fashion 

shoot.

 

I love the S and have done a bunch of landscapes with the camera but if you shoot large 

need to do TS or long exposures you may have to look at another venue.

 

Bling, baubles, asthenic models with cross processed files ... guaranteed exposure on 

the S Magazine.

 

And that is OK as long as you understand the ground rules ... and why the small MF

chip was chosen in the first place.

 

We are now able to see files from a 100 MP sensor ... and all of the inherent problems

with color cast. Just a matter of personal preference ... Leica will not be all things to all

comers ... nor should we expect them to modify their business plan in order to indulge our 

pet desires.

 

I doubt if the world of Art will be found deficient 50 years from now due to the lack of a 

Leica S TS wide. 

 

As the song stated... "Love the one your with" ....

 

Bob

 

 

I understand a lot of landscape shooters like TS lenses. To be clear, I use them as an architectural photographer. There are varied uses. The same thing you said may still apply, however. I am happy with my M systems as I know I will be with my S system on it's ay to me now. I am just a guy that would be excited to keep it all in the family vs farming out some of my needs elsewhere. 

[ynp]

Not the best news if it's accurate, but who's to know for sure. I'd assume the r&d cost vs actual sales might be less than ideal, but.....

 

.... if no 30mm T/S for the S, certainly a 24 or 21 T/S for the SL might be a proper alternative. Seriously, there should be far, far more SL owners than S as the year(s) progress.

You are right, there will be more SL users in the future.

 

As far as I am concerned, I'd prefer a T/ S solution for my CCD camera. Obviously, I am a retrograde.

[John McMaster]

 

.... if no 30mm T/S for the S, certainly a 24 or 21 T/S for the SL might be a proper alternative. Seriously, there should be far, far more SL owners than S as the year(s) progress.

 

They would be better off making an auto adapter (similar to the Contax and Hassselblad ones) for the Canon EF range IMO

 

john

[Guest]

It appears that the Hasselblad HTS HC 28 and H-S adapter do work on the S and allow for AF ... which does not work on the Hasselblad

 

However you lose the programmed functions in focus for the shift and tilt values 

 

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/10566-hasselblad-hts-1-5-a.html#post621937

 

Bob

[rsmphoto]

It appears that the Hasselblad HTS HC 28 and H-S adapter do work on the S and allow for AF ... which does not work on the Hasselblad

 

However you lose the programmed functions in focus for the shift and tilt values 

 

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/10566-hasselblad-hts-1-5-a.html#post621937

 

Bob

 

Yes, using the HTS with the S2 was never very successful due to lack of DAC.

[Jeff S]

I posted this elsewhere, but seemed to fit this thread as well.....3 T/S lenses rumored for the SL...  http://leicarumors.com/2016/03/03/the-latest-leica-rumors-new-m-camera-without-lcd-screen-tilt-shift-sl-lenses.aspx/  

 

No details on focal length, anticipated timing.....or even degree of confidence in rumor.  But interesting if the S system is passed over for the SL in this regard.

 

Jeff

[tthorne]

I posted this elsewhere, but seemed to fit this thread as well.....3 T/S lenses rumored for the SL...  http://leicarumors.com/2016/03/03/the-latest-leica-rumors-new-m-camera-without-lcd-screen-tilt-shift-sl-lenses.aspx/

 

No details on focal length, anticipated timing.....or even degree of confidence in rumor.  But interesting if the S system is passed over for the SL in this regard.

 

Jeff

 

 

I saw this also, however, I am told that the rumor is untrue and that there are other lenses in the development lineup that would be of a higher priority than a niche lens such as a tilt/shift, much less 3 of them. Disappointing, and as much as I want my information to be wrong, it just makes sense. 

[ZHNL]

I can understand OP's pain but I feel to bring more customers to Leica S, they need upgame their sensor resolution and offer a summilux type lens. 

 

None of them really needed, but the competition pressure from 35mm system is getting higher and higher.  High resolution is a must to justify its premium brand for high price asked. and Summilux Type of lens will really differentiate itself from other system include 35mm and MF. 

 

T/S lens is indeed a niche of niche of the niche. 

[ynp]

I can understand OP's pain but I feel to bring more customers to Leica S, they need upgame their sensor resolution and offer a summilux type lens.

 

None of them really needed, but the competition pressure from 35mm system is getting higher and higher. High resolution is a must to justify its premium brand for high price asked. and Summilux Type of lens will really differentiate itself from other system include 35mm and MF.

 

T/S lens is indeed a niche of niche of the niche.

I am sorry, but I fail to understand the purpose of a Summilux lens on a MFD camera. The S100/2 has such a thin DOF at portrait distances, that only one eye stays in focus. That is just a trick IMO, no one but a photographer wants a picture of one eye, and I really think that the f1.4 S lenses will add zero value to the system, maybe they will add some bragging rights for a few.

 

 

At the same time, I would welcome an S camera with multi-shot true color sensor. My Sinarback is an older model and I don't want to buy a Hasselblad to do my occasional copying work. With the modern software, my view camera is excessively complicated and movements are unnecessary for the flat artwork and textiles work.

 

Anyway, I am prepared to move to a new MS Hasselblad with my small collection of HC lenses, I currently use on my S2-P. I am patient and wait for Photokina 2016 and I have already bought the tickets.

[ZHNL]

I am sorry, but I fail to understand the purpose of a Summilux lens on a MFD camera. The S100/2 has such a thin DOF at portrait distances, that only one eye stays in focus. That is just a trick IMO, no one but a photographer wants a picture of one eye, and I really think that the f1.4 S lenses will add zero value to the system, maybe they will add some bragging rights for a few.

 

 

At the same time, I would welcome an S camera with multi-shot true color sensor. My Sinarback is an older model and I don't want to buy a Hasselblad to do my occasional copying work. With the modern software, my view camera is excessively complicated and movements are unnecessary for the flat artwork and textiles work.

 

Anyway, I am prepared to move to a new MS Hasselblad with my small collection of HC lenses, I currently use on my S2-P. I am patient and wait for Photokina 2016 and I have already bought the tickets.

OK, maybe you failed to understand that, but not everyone fails. First, if all S users are from Fashion or commercial photography industry, fine, f2.5 will do that, maybe just create a set of cheaper and small f4 lens since most of them use after f8 anyway. But, but if they are targeting to differentiate themselves to justify premium system asking serious money over other system, they need up their game.

 

Why Summilux is "f1.4 S lenses will add zero value to the system, maybe they will add some bragging rights for a few. they will add some bragging rights for a few. " Are you stereotype people who use fast glass only for that?

 

Having one eye in focus is not the fault of aperture or lens but showing poor skill and judgement of photographer at that condition. and I am sure you know f1.4 at further distance will have more DOF than even f2.8 at closer distance. It will create a nice isolation under low light and create special look other system hard to following. Fast glass will always offer more freedom and dimension if you can afford the size and $, especially given Leica S2/S006 poor low light performance. why not? If you take a look of Contax system, no one use 80mm lens at any other aperture but f2. That is about f1.2 at 35mm system and about f1.4 summilux type of lens for S system. This will lure a lot of wedding photographer to the S system. fast glass at 35mm system simply won't have that same look. 

 

If Medium format doesn't give you extra resolution or DOF(look), why buy it given 35mm system having so many pix and wonderful new glass. Leica S need justification other than a brand name. 

 

It may not for you (fast glass) or for me,(price) but it doesn't mean it will add zero value. S owners can keep saying that their system is best in the world, but outsiders need more than that to enter the system. The competition is changing, it is not 5 years ago, you can get away with 36M sensor and claim high end system.

 

my 2 cents.  

 

Sorry for off topic. 

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[ynp]

OK, maybe you failed to understand that, but not everyone fails. First, if all S users are from Fashion or commercial photography industry, fine, f2.5 will do that, maybe just create a set of cheaper and small f4 lens since most of them use after f8 anyway. But, but if they are targeting to differentiate themselves to justify premium system asking serious money over other system, they need up their game.

 

Why Summilux is "f1.4 S lenses will add zero value to the system, maybe they will add some bragging rights for a few. they will add some bragging rights for a few. " Are you stereotype people who use fast glass only for that?[/color

You are right, for my style of shooting, with strobes in studio, I am usually at f4-5.6. With ambient I am more often wide open or f4. Indeed, I cannot understand the need of f1,4 to differentiate, I have never been creative and, compared to other MF brands, Leica S lenses are very fast. For example the Hasselblad HC120mm is an f4 lens. The Leica S lenses are generally faster than the competition and differentiate just right.

 

Having one eye in focus is not the fault of aperture or lens but showing poor skill and judgement of photographer at that condition. and I am sure you know f1.4 at further distance will have more DOF than even f2.8 at closer distance. It will create a nice isolation under low light and create special look other system hard to following. Fast glass will always offer more freedom and dimension if you can afford the size and $, especially given Leica S2/S006 poor low light performance. why not? If you take a look of Contax system, no one use 80mm lens at any other aperture but f2. That is about f1.2 at 35mm system and about f1.4 summilux type of lens for S system. This will lure a lot of wedding photographer to the S system. fast glass at 35mm system simply won't have that same look.

I know nothing about wedding photography and cannot comment. But I agree that almost everyone who has a Contax 2/80mm. use and abuse the uniq look of the lens wide open. I know, I am guilty myself, being a Contax user for several years.

 

If Medium format doesn't give you extra resolution or DOF(look), why buy it given 35mm system having so many pix and wonderful new glass. Leica S need justification other than a brand name.

 

It is may not for you (fast glass) or for me,(price) but it doesn't mean it will add zero value. S owners can keep saying that their system is best in the world, but outsiders need more than that to enter the system. The competition is changing, it is not 5 years ago, you can get away with 36M sensor and claim high end system.

 

my 2 cents.

I won't mind to get a Leica S with a 80 megapixel sensor, provided it's has binning for faster shooting. 3 fps is very useful with continuous and ambient light.