IkarusJohn Posted October 12, 2016 Share #261 Posted October 12, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) So what is the point to this thread if it not allowed to other post opinion or test results or not care whatever others' test, opinion??? What are we looking for since Leica lens are all so great? You can post what you like. What's the point of the thread? To post news and views about this new lens, of course! People are free to post nonsense, as are others to call it for what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 12, 2016 Posted October 12, 2016 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here Summilux-SL 50 MM F/1,4 ASPH. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ZHNL Posted October 12, 2016 Share #262 Posted October 12, 2016 You can post what you like. What's the point of the thread? To post news and views about this new lens, of course! People are free to post nonsense, as are others to call it for what it is. The definition of nonsense is? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 12, 2016 Share #263 Posted October 12, 2016 In the eye of the beholder - we exchange opinions, very rarely fundamental truths. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted October 12, 2016 Share #264 Posted October 12, 2016 E. Puts stated some months ago, I paraphrase, there is little point in testing the performance of current Leica lenses. They are all so good that only the most superlative technique under laboratory conditions will reveal differences. In practice such differences as are detected are of little or no practical consequence. I have found this to be an accurate statement. What an odd statement. What you see in the photos is going to be dictated and verified by what (properly done) test results show. Check out Lensrentals testing of the 50 ASPH, 50 APO, and Noctilux for an example. It pretty well corresponds with what I saw when I shot each on my M-P. The APO was my favorite with a very sharp look across the frame, and basically what appears to me to be a very neutral rendering. The tests showed this, high resolution, very little astigmatism. The Noctilux is awesome for a very specific look, far less perfect than the APO. The results show much lower resolution than the other two, with also very low astigmatism, and of course the lens offers a larger aperture. The ASPH is sort of a middle-ground between the two for me, and the one I ended up purchasing because I can't justify buying the other two together. Lensrentals showed impressive resolution with higher astigmatism. Testing that's done well usually includes a subjective assessment in tandem with the objective assessment. I don't see how Leica's current offerings (in this 50mm example) negate the utility of good testing. You could certainly be looking for a high resolution lens across the frame and miss out by purchasing the Noctilux. It's well regarded, especially by those who own it, and for good reason. But in terms of practical consequence, you'd be buying the wrong lens if you ignore the test results. You could also choose the ASPH and miss out on the higher edge resolution offered by the much cheaper 50 Summicron f2 (also included in the Lensrentals test). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted October 12, 2016 Share #265 Posted October 12, 2016 The definition of nonsense is? According to my 'ex, anything I've ever said or done. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 12, 2016 Share #266 Posted October 12, 2016 What an odd statement. What you see in the photos is going to be dictated and verified by what (properly done) test results show. Check out Lensrentals testing of the 50 ASPH, 50 APO, and Noctilux for an example. It pretty well corresponds with what I saw when I shot each on my M-P. The APO was my favorite with a very sharp look across the frame, and basically what appears to me to be a very neutral rendering. The tests showed this, high resolution, very little astigmatism. The Noctilux is awesome for a very specific look, far less perfect than the APO. The results show much lower resolution than the other two, with also very low astigmatism, and of course the lens offers a larger aperture. The ASPH is sort of a middle-ground between the two for me, and the one I ended up purchasing because I can't justify buying the other two together. Lensrentals showed impressive resolution with higher astigmatism. Testing that's done well usually includes a subjective assessment in tandem with the objective assessment. I don't see how Leica's current offerings (in this 50mm example) negate the utility of good testing. You could certainly be looking for a high resolution lens across the frame and miss out by purchasing the Noctilux. It's well regarded, especially by those who own it, and for good reason. But in terms of practical consequence, you'd be buying the wrong lens if you ignore the test results. You could also choose the ASPH and miss out on the higher edge resolution offered by the much cheaper 50 Summicron f2 (also included in the Lensrentals test). Or, you could just buy one of the three very good lenses without bothering with what is, after all, dancing on the head of a pin, and be very happy with it. My perception is based on two things - (1) my technique is usually the downfall of a good photograph and I have never taken a 'good' photograph which relied on the quality of the lens (in all honesty), and (2) you only really see the difference in side by side testing in controlled conditions (which is of zero interest). I'm very sure there are others who rely on the technical perfection of the APO to produce the very best images - I don't have the artistic skill to recognise those images as being any better from an image perspective than one take from a relatively modest 50 Summilux or the cheaper Summicron. Almost all of the images I have loved the most (in 35mm format) have been taken with equipment of far more modest performance than anything I own. I think that is what Erwin was getting at, and I agree with him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted October 12, 2016 Share #267 Posted October 12, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) What an odd statement. What you see in the photos is going to be dictated and verified by what (properly done) test results show. Check out Lensrentals testing of the 50 ASPH, 50 APO, and Noctilux for an example. It pretty well corresponds with what I saw when I shot each on my M-P. The APO was my favorite with a very sharp look across the frame, and basically what appears to me to be a very neutral rendering. The tests showed this, high resolution, very little astigmatism. The Noctilux is awesome for a very specific look, far less perfect than the APO. The results show much lower resolution than the other two, with also very low astigmatism, and of course the lens offers a larger aperture. The ASPH is sort of a middle-ground between the two for me, and the one I ended up purchasing because I can't justify buying the other two together. Lensrentals showed impressive resolution with higher astigmatism. Testing that's done well usually includes a subjective assessment in tandem with the objective assessment. I don't see how Leica's current offerings (in this 50mm example) negate the utility of good testing. You could certainly be looking for a high resolution lens across the frame and miss out by purchasing the Noctilux. It's well regarded, especially by those who own it, and for good reason. But in terms of practical consequence, you'd be buying the wrong lens if you ignore the test results. You could also choose the ASPH and miss out on the higher edge resolution offered by the much cheaper 50 Summicron f2 (also included in the Lensrentals test). I agree with you, I don't make purchase desicion based on anyone test results but I appreciate anyone spend time to do it, even it is a flawed test. I will take whatever I can from it. Leica's lens are generally good as they should be for the asking price and heritage it hold but it is facing stronger and stronger competition everywhere. Saying its pointless to test Leica glass with current sensor is "nonsense" to me IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 12, 2016 Share #268 Posted October 12, 2016 Of course, you can't buy/rent everything to test and you have time constraints. Plus a good dealer will often allow for a reasonably long demo, especially with expensive (in Leica terms) gear like the S007 and lenses. It pays to build relationships. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted October 12, 2016 Share #269 Posted October 12, 2016 Or, you could just buy one of the three very good lenses without bothering with what is, after all, dancing on the head of a pin, and be very happy with it. My perception is based on two things - (1) my technique is usually the downfall of a good photograph and I have never taken a 'good' photograph which relied on the quality of the lens (in all honesty), and (2) you only really see the difference in side by side testing in controlled conditions (which is of zero interest). I'm very sure there are others who rely on the technical perfection of the APO to produce the very best images - I don't have the artistic skill to recognise those images as being any better from an image perspective than one take from a relatively modest 50 Summilux or the cheaper Summicron. Almost all of the images I have loved the most (in 35mm format) have been taken with equipment of far more modest performance than anything I own. I think that is what Erwin was getting at, and I agree with him. I agree with the idea that Leica's lenses are all good enough to produce satisfactory photos. If that were the only objective, they would not produce the variety they do and you could apply the same standard to other brands and avoid the cost of Leica altogether. Artistic ability and/or technique will certainly limit the results as well. That said if you're looking for a 50 mm M-mount lens and you're looking at Leica's lineup you have a number of choices, each with its own imaging characteristics, size, weight, price, handling, etc. To just purchase one without verifying it best fits your needs seems absurd when the tests and user reports are available. You can also (as I did) go test them yourself and do the side by side comparison before purchase. I don't see this as dancing on the head of a pin at all really. It's just a difference of opinion I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted October 12, 2016 Share #270 Posted October 12, 2016 Plus a good dealer will often allow for a reasonably long demo, especially with expensive (in Leica terms) gear like the S007 and lenses. It pays to build relationships. Jeff This is a good point that fits in with another thread where we discussed purchasing from a dealer vs finding the best deal online. If I had gone down the S-system path, I would have gone through Leica Miami where several demo options were available (and reimbursable upon purchase). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 12, 2016 Share #271 Posted October 12, 2016 This is a good point that fits in with another thread where we discussed purchasing from a dealer vs finding the best deal online. If I had gone down the S-system path, I would have gone through Leica Miami where several demo options were available (and reimbursable upon purchase). Or free. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 12, 2016 Share #272 Posted October 12, 2016 ... if you're looking for a 50 mm M-mount lens and you're looking at Leica's lineup you have a number of choices, each with its own imaging characteristics, size, weight, price, handling, etc. To just purchase one without verifying it best fits your needs seems absurd when the tests and user reports are available. You can also (as I did) go test them yourself and do the side by side comparison before purchase. I don't see this as dancing on the head of a pin at all really. It's just a difference of opinion I guess. Okay, so let's look at the 50mm line-up, in order of price: Summarit 50/2.4 $1,800.00 Summicron 50/2 $2,200.00 Summilux 50/1.4 ASPH $3,800.00 APO Summicron 50/2 ASPH $7,800.00 Noctilux 50/0.95 ASPH $10,650.00 The last three are all actually APO and have floating lens elements. The first two have only spherical elements. Sure, each has its own character, but there's plenty of direct experience posted on the forum that the Summarit lenses are actually very good, without regard to price. Similarly, the most expensive 50mm lens, the Noctilux, can be a nightmare to use, particularly with purple fringing (on the M(240) sensor). But, if you factor in price, the 50 Summilux ASPH is probably the best buy. People have all sorts of reasons for selecting lenses, and I don't criticise them for a minute. But, I'd have to say that I do not believe that the minuscule differences revealed in bench testing or other scientific, side by side tests, make the slightest difference to the final image (tested at the same aperture etc). For aesthetic or other reasons, you might like the option of having an aperture of f/0.95 - I certainly do, but that is a different issue from testing ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 12, 2016 Share #273 Posted October 12, 2016 As for conducting personal lens tests, I remember the days when sample variation often prompted picky buyers to try several lenses before getting one that rendered as desired. These days, with computer aided technology, etc, there is more consistency.....although the folks at Lens Rentals have done some extensive testing to show that not all companies, or models, are alike in this regard. I'm more inclined to test a system....camera and a lens or two....over a period of time to better gauge how it handles in the field and to see how it fits into my print workflow. I'm not into test charts and such; rather, just using the system as I normally would to better assess ergonomics, ease of operation (especially viewing and focusing), and so on, and to make prints. Most systems....cameras and lenses....these days are pretty darn good IQ-wise, as Puts suggests, but printing at somewhat larger sizes (not monster size) can help to reveal rendering attributes or deficiencies.....or my own. I'll still look at third party reviews from 'trustworthy' folks (based on past consistency with my own findings) to narrow the field and/or to find out information that I could not easily test, e.g., weather sealing under extreme conditions. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted October 12, 2016 Share #274 Posted October 12, 2016 I have to agree with both Peter and Puts that all current Leica lenses are optically corrected to the point where only very careful lab testing will reveal differences ...... and those will be negligible from the point of view of 'normal' use. ....BUT ...... there are differences due to maximum lens aperture and OOF rendering, plus subtle differences in colour profile and contrast that do produce different results ........ ..... and the preference in that is entirely in the eye of the beholder, not down to lab tests. The SL 50/1.4 interview indicates this is where this lens differs from the others ....... optically as well corrected as it smaller M brothers but with different OOF and DOF characteristics that will give a different signature...... in some situations It all then boils down to whether you like the look or not, whether you need AF, and whether bulk and weight concerns you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted October 12, 2016 Share #275 Posted October 12, 2016 This is a good point that fits in with another thread where we discussed purchasing from a dealer vs finding the best deal online. If I had gone down the S-system path, I would have gone through Leica Miami where several demo options were available (and reimbursable upon purchase). This reminded me of the sad news of a very old camera shop in my area closing this month after 50 years of business. I bought my first camera from them 20 years ago and started on the photographic journey. I loved the shop but all smart folks used the shop to play with the camera/lens and then bought online, driving the business into a loss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 12, 2016 Share #276 Posted October 12, 2016 ... The SL 50/1.4 interview indicates this is where this lens differs from the others ....... optically as well corrected as it smaller M brothers but with different OOF and DOF characteristics that will give a different signature...... in some situations It all then boils down to whether you like the look or not, whether you need AF, and whether bulk and weight concerns you. That is what I'm holding out for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted October 12, 2016 Share #277 Posted October 12, 2016 Plus a good dealer will often allow for a reasonably long demo, especially with expensive (in Leica terms) gear like the S007 and lenses. It pays to build relationships. Jeff Unfortunately we don't have this option in Oz. A dealer *may* organise something with Leica Australia regarding demos but they don't do it themselves and they don't offer it up front to potential clients. Our market just doesn't have the size to carry that level of loan stock at a dealer. Shooting the display model in store or close by is the best we get. And I've never fully appreciated what a camera can do in a 15 minute trial. Unfortunately, most often, we have to rely on the opinions of others and take a punt. It's also made difficult because we don't have the liberal return policies that they have in the US. If I want to try an item and potentially return it if unsuitable I'm better off buying from B&H. So, while I probably pay the entire salary of my sales contact at my local Leica dealer, in purchases each year, I really don't get any more *service* than someone buying a compact camera from the same store. In fact the only time I've needed them to back up their sales with some support (when my brand new S 120mm AF failed 1/2 an hour after getting home) I found it lacking. And currently they're the only remaining Leica dealer in my state. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 12, 2016 Share #278 Posted October 12, 2016 I do get better service from Progear (and Photo & Video), but otherwise it's pretty much the same here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 13, 2016 Share #279 Posted October 13, 2016 Unfortunately we don't have this option in Oz. A dealer *may* organise something with Leica Australia regarding demos but they don't do it themselves and they don't offer it up front to potential clients. Our market just doesn't have the size to carry that level of loan stock at a dealer. Bummer. But a good excuse for a vacation. Leica Miami, for instance, will arrange for extended demos or even outings with David Farkas and staff. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted October 13, 2016 Share #280 Posted October 13, 2016 Bummer. But a good excuse for a vacation. Leica Miami, for instance, will arrange for extended demos or even outings with David Farkas and staff. Jeff Just booked my next vacation. 10 day street photo workshop (via Leica Acadamie) in India next march. I'll have to make my camera purchases by dumb and intuition in the meantime, although there is a genuine Leica store opening in Sydney by the end of the year. Maybe I'll have better luck. Thought I might stop over in an Asian city that's good for Leica stuff on the way to my workshop. Tokyo or Singapore maybe? Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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