Summilux-SL 50 MM F/1,4 ASPH

[adamdewilde]

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Are we all not allowed to have discussions about what we don't like. Or is this a fanboys only club? This is the 50SL thread where people talk. If you don't like what someone says then why do you even bother having a forum conversation. What technical details do you REALLY want to hear? What you want to hear is that it's perfect. Due to price/size it should be. I tell you it's not and I get blasted. So I'll just tell you what you want to hear and be done with it. Great conversation guys!

 

 

THIS LENS IS AWESOME! You'll all be very happy with it. Another grand slam from Leica!

 

And for those who want technical details here it is: This is a flagship lens. The reference 50 to kill all reference 50s. It's big but anyone who isn't a complete wimp will be fine carrying it around. Man up wussies.. 

 

Forget everything else that made you fall in love with Leica! Screw all those little M lenses.. You can toss them out, as this lens is it TRUST ME!

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[LD_50]

Are we all not allowed to have discussions about what we don't like. Or is this a fanboys only club? This is the 50SL thread where people talk. If you don't like what someone says then why do you even bother having a forum conversation. What technical details do you REALLY want to hear? What you want to hear is that it's perfect. Due to price/size it should be. I tell you it's not and I get blasted. So I'll just tell you what you want to hear and be done with it. Great conversation guys!

 

 

THIS LENS IS AWESOME! You'll all be very happy with it. Another grand slam from Leica!

 

And for those who want technical details here it is: This is a flagship lens. The reference 50 to kill all reference 50s. It's big but anyone who isn't a complete wimp will be fine carrying it around. Man up wussies..

 

Forget everything else that made you fall in love with Leica! Screw all those little M lenses.. You can toss them out, as this lens is it TRUST ME!

Of course you're allowed to write or discuss whatever you want. You keep doing so, proving the point.

 

I don't expect the lens to be perfect. The price and size do not mean it should be perfect. The size is similar to all larger aperture 50mm AF lenses that cover full frame and offer high technical quality. The price is dependent on a number of factors and is in line with all of Leica's products.

 

I do wonder why anyone expected it to be small or cheap.

 

The M mount lenses haven't been forgotten, which is why so many here, myself included, use them on the SL. The ability to adapt M and R lenses is likely what got most into the SL to begin with.

[adamdewilde]

On the web page linked by jrp there is another portrait made with the Summilux-SL 50 MM F/1.4 ASPH and it also has some out of focus highlights.  http://www.fotointern.ch/wp-uploads/2016/09/Leica-Bild02-Ursula-1.4_50-1.4.jpg Here is a 100% crop from a screen capture: 

blobs2.png

In the two highlights that are about half way up I can see two darker spots with ripples around them that are at 10:30 and 12 o'clock about 2/3 of the way from the center to the edge. I also see a rim that is lighter than the adjacent inner area, but that could very easily be sharpening applied during construction of the jpg. I wonder if the two dots are just some particles of dust on one of the elements of the lens.

 

Is there onion ring bokeh in this image?

 

dgktkr

 

 

I'm not 100% fussed about onion ring bokeh but I will say this. My 50APO (literally had the first batch) had a flare issue. There was no onion ring bokeh. The colors and contrast were OFF THE HOOK AMAZING. I sent my lens in, it was gone ages, I flipped out and to calm me down I was contacted by Alfie. I had a long chat with the at the time CEO about what exactly they needed to do with my lens (it was more then blacken the element edges, but what was told to me I guess was told in some sort of confidence and he was a nice man so leave it at that). Anyway long story short, it now has onion ring bokeh, is less contrasty in the in focus areas and has worse colour. I would NEVER have sent the lens in had I known what would become of it. I still like it, it's one of my favourite lenses, but I'd pay another $10k to get that old 50APO back. And I'd just sell this one for whatever it's worth now ($5k?). 

 

My second APO which came from the second batch that had been corrected acted like my first APO after the fix. So both weren't as good as my old one (and by old one I mean old inners since it's the same shell). Both had onion ring bokeh and both were a bit more resistant to flare. And almost had no ghosting whatsoever. 

 

Anyway, there's something to be said about hand made ASPH elements and pressed. Though it's obvious that you can do a lot more to a precision pressed element then you can to a hand made one. Even when it comes to coatings and etc. And tolerances are better as well.

 

Is this the reason why I'm not the biggest fan of the 50Lux? No, it's not.. But yeah it would be nice if the bokeh were better for the size/weight/price and Leica claimed perfectness of the lens. If this is the NEW reference lens, then the SL system isn't going to be as good as I had hoped it would as far as bokeh is concern.

 

Anyway, I don't think we're really suppose to be discussing negatives. So let's stick to the positives.. IF a robber tries to steal from you, you can always beat him with your big lens And the 82mm filter thread mean you can share filters easier! Man this is going to be awesome, will save me $200 or so dollars on filters!!

[LD_50]

Is the pre-fix 50 APO's superior performance well known and documented?

 

I've been considering this lens and would like to see examples of the superior quality. I had not read this before and would expect the used price to be quite a bit higher for those remaining pre-fix lenses.

[adamdewilde]

Of course you're allowed to write or discuss whatever you want. You keep doing so, proving the point.

 

I don't expect the lens to be perfect. The price and size do not mean it should be perfect. The size is similar to all larger aperture 50mm AF lenses that cover full frame and offer high technical quality. The price is dependent on a number of factors and is in line with all of Leica's products.

 

I do wonder why anyone expected it to be small or cheap.

 

The M mount lenses haven't been forgotten, which is why so many here, myself included, use them on the SL. The ability to adapt M and R lenses is likely what got most into the SL to begin with.

 

If you haven't forgotten about M lenses... Then why did you say "The size is similar to all larger aperture 50mm AF lenses that cover full frame and offer high technical quality" I do see that you wrote AF. But again Techart can crudely turn the 50Lux-asph into an AF lens.. Surely Leica could do better then they've just done where size is concerned? Oh and techart AF lenses work better AF wise on the A7rII then T lenses do on the SL.. So then their is that. 

 

And I'm not saying the 50Lux-asph-M is a shining example of perfection but for the past 5 years to all of you, it was perfect. In fact years ago I mentioned the mid zone dip (before I knew what a mid zone dip was or how to properly explain it) and everybody bashed me and thought I was crazy. Telling me that I didn't know how to use my lens. Now it's widely known and accepted. Is it still a great lens in my eye? YES, it just takes a bit more technique to properly focus on an M and I wouldn't recommend it as a first lens to someone new to RF.

 

Anyway, does anyone wanna buy my SL+Zoom? I'll sell it for $10,500 USD shipped to anywhere in USA (way less then I paid for it). But it's so amazing that surely someone wants it?! 

 

 

I guess at the end of the day a lot of us are frustrated because reality doesn't match our hopes and expectations. 

 

For me, it would have been perfect if Leica built a M240 w/out a RF mechanism but instead put contacts instead of 6-bit laser. Still kept the RF window w/frame lines, but added a digital overlay in the forum of a movable + that would act as a focus point indicator. And with no + it would be multi or face detect as a floating grey box. Then they put AF motors into all the little summicrons so that they'd retain their size and be AF.... Think similar to a digital Contax G. And I would have even not minded screw drive focusing if they needed to do that to keep the lenses small. It would have been no less revolutionary then the SL is now. In fact I'd argue that it would have been more interesting and a better move on their part judging by the poor SL sales and the complaints of size..

 

And yes, you are right, there aren't very many forums where people complain about the size of the 24-90 now that it's out and in peoples hands. Reason why, people who didn't like the size, generally didn't buy the camera. That's again another reason why they have poor sales numbers. Peter Karbe even recognised this and mentioned that they're keeping the Summicrons small because people complained about size! Why would they now all of a sudden care unless they were worried about sales numbers?! Use common sense ppl. 

[adamdewilde]

Is the pre-fix 50 APO's superior performance well known and documented?

 

I've been considering this lens and would like to see examples of the superior quality. I had not read this before and would expect the used price to be quite a bit higher for those remaining pre-fix lenses.

 

Sorry for the deviation..

 

From what I was told. They made around 5 prototype lenses, a few of them were re-wrapped (changed casing) due to damage from being loaners. The first BATCH that were sent out was less then 15 pieces worldwide not including any prototypes they sent out as new stock. So 20 potentially existed. Out of said 20 lenses their must have been sample variations due to hand grinding/polishing of elements and hand application of some tricky coatings. 

 

At least 15 lenses were sent back, from what I gather from various conversations I've had. Now I don't know the exact numbers mentioned above I'm just going off of a few phone conversations and that's all.

 

Out of all the 50APO lenses made, I think a total of 50 lenses could have potentially had flare issues, thus returned and resent out. Not all of these were first batch though. You could check Mings review for his lenses performance, but I think I prototyped the same lens as him just before he got it, and it's performance wasn't as good as my APOs performance (my actual retail copy from the first batch). 

 

So technically 5 lenses COULD still have superior performance. Can you quantify this, no probably not without direct side by side comparisons. So for all intents and purposes the 50APO is as it is. 

 

Just another note. I had two 50APO lenses for a long while (over a year) and one of them was always slightly less contrasty and slightly less vibrant then the other. I think routinely I would have to add about +10 to contrast and +5 or +10 to saturation. Both again were not as good in my unscientific testing as my first copy (not the one I prototyped, the one I sent for repair). The only reason I knew that they were different is because I ran some tests with my old M240 vs my M240-P and also because I ran tests against the SL and A7II (which I've written about, and have already been bashed about).

 

I wrote to Karbe on this 50APO issue, but he never got back to me. I was told that he read my email and did have an answer for me, and would when he wasn't so busy write me back. But it never happened. Perhaps because he got busy, or perhaps because I had a falling out with Leica. Or perhaps he was simply going to write me to tell me it wasn't possible because nothing had changed (which is what I'd expect Leica to say, since their official statement was that they forgot to black some element edges.. But also do take note this is rubbish because when my lens came back it had LESS blacked out elements then when it was sent in.)

 

 

Anyway this is off topic no matter how interesting or uninteresting it may be. Also one of the white whales in my photography life that every time I think about, it reminds me that I must have some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder. 

[LD_50]

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If you haven't forgotten about M lenses... Then why did you say "The size is similar to all larger aperture 50mm AF lenses that cover full frame and offer high technical quality" I do see that you wrote AF. But again Techart can crudely turn the 50Lux-asph into an AF lens.. Surely Leica could do better then they've just done where size is concerned? Oh and techart AF lenses work better AF wise on the A7rII then T lenses do on the SL.. So then their is that.

I said exactly what I meant. A tech art adapted 50 Lux won't be the same as the Lux-SL. It will focus more slowly, won't have weather sealing, and the performance at this point is unknown to most of us. I am unaware of any M-sized full frame AF lenses that offer the same level of quality. Hopefully the Summicrons for the SL start to get there. If not, M lenses are still available and I'll continue to use them.

 

I shoot the 50 Lux ASPH on my M-P and the SL and likely won't buy the Lux-SL. The M version is good enough, small, and mounts on both cameras.

 

The camera you describe would be an interesting evolution of the M. Leave out AF and I think we will see some of those ideas down the road. A hybrid finder and smaller size and weight would have me looking to upgrade from my M-P.

[adamdewilde]

Is the pre-fix 50 APO's superior performance well known and documented?

 

I've been considering this lens and would like to see examples of the superior quality. I had not read this before and would expect the used price to be quite a bit higher for those remaining pre-fix lenses.

 

 

Bottom line.. It's a great lens and you should buy it if you're not hurting for cash. There is nothing wrong with it. One of the things that I think Leica should be genuinely proud of. 

To be completely honest. I always tell people this since I've bought and sold so much Leica I meet a lot of people new to Leica and we chat since I'm passionate about photography. 

 

Here is what I tell them: The 50APO is a lens you'll buy, and scratch your head wondering what all the fuss is about. If you sell it to early, you'll never know what you missed. However if you keep it for a few months and use it. Then switch to another lens, you'll quickly realise why you paid so much for it. NOTHING will be as good as this lens, and every other lens will make you feel like you're missing something you can't quite put your finger on.

 

TIP: Despite what Leica says, I also think the 50APO is somewhat wasted on the MM cameras. AND it does not play well at all with RED or ORANGE filters!!

 

Now a lot of people also ask me if it's better to get the 50Lux: The 50 lux is great, but the mid zone dip makes it tricky for first time users of RF cameras. BUT if you stick to centre focus for a long while, it's a great lens. The lens has WOW factor, and lots of that beautiful Leica color that we are all willing to pay so much to have in our shots. The bokeh is for the most part amazing, but there will be times when it's distracting. If you want WOW factor right out of the gate, buy the 50Lux it won't disappoint. I also recommend that people use the 50Lux with the M9 since the colors pair very well. So if you have an M9, and don't have a 50Lux, you're really missing out. I will also add that for nighttime city photography, the 50Lux is better then the 50Noctilux IMHO. The way the 50Lux handles light is just nicer (subjective).

[adamdewilde]

I said exactly what I meant. A tech art adapted 50 Lux won't be the same as the Lux-SL. It will focus more slowly, won't have weather sealing, and the performance at this point is unknown to most of us. I am unaware of any M-sized full frame AF lenses that offer the same level of quality. Hopefully the Summicrons for the SL start to get there. If not, M lenses are still available and I'll continue to use them.

 

I shoot the 50 Lux ASPH on my M-P and the SL and likely won't buy the Lux-SL. The M version is good enough, small, and mounts on both cameras.

 

The camera you describe would be an interesting evolution of the M. Leave out AF and I think we will see some of those ideas down the road. A hybrid finder and smaller size and weight would have me looking to upgrade from my M-P.

 

 

Well my initial thought on a modern RF would be that they have a laser to judge flange distance instead of the RF mechanism which has a tendency to fall out of alignment. BUT if the lens falls out of alignment then it will also cause issues with a laser distance reader. 

 

So then I thought some type of overlay system where there are two sensors that overlay onto a patch so it would be a true digital RF. But seems a bit to complex, and not likely to manifest since Leica seems to be diving into EVFs head first. 

 

The Techart adapter isn't as bad as I thought it would be. Even with the 50Lux wide open. I'm not sure how well a SL techart would do. Since the SL doesn't have the same "superior" AF detection that the A7rII does. 

 

Anyway, I wish the 50SL was smaller. And I wish it were more to my liking rendering wise. And a bit more expensive, I'd like to have paid more for it to get it more compact and with better IQ. It's far less usable for what I want to use it for at it's current size. I never use the SL+Zoom as an everyday camera because of it's size.

 

Luckily I have an M+50APO still.

 

 

Also just to note, I've used my M+M-lenses in a Singapore monsoon downpour. Never had issues. Though I have a friend who used his on a boat. Got a misting of seawater on his sweater (instinctively covered his camera when he seen the mist). And then turned it off, went in to dry the little tiny bit of mist he got on it. Ate dinner on the ship and came back to a broken camera. Leica Germany told him it had extensive seawater damage and that it was beyond repair. However that happened is puzzling to me, since I was always under the impression that the M lenses were pretty solid and the M240 bodies were weather sealed. BTW, his lens was perfectly fine. He just wiped it down with a warm fresh water dampened cloth. 

[LocalHero1953]

Really? :-) ok time for you to get a better monitor or dump that Surface.

Attached is a simple screenshot off my iPad screen.

 

 

 

Doesn't look like that on my system.

I'll still hold fire on judgement.

 

Edit: to clarify. I see what you call onion rings in your screenshot, but they don't show on the version I viewed on my tablet nor in the version I downloaded and viewed in PS on my PC with 27" wide gamut screen. Not proven, to my mind.

[meerec]

 

Even in your attached image I can clearly see the onion rings. I'm looking at the image on my iPad Pro Retina display, I stretch the image with two fingers and they come up clearly.

 

I would have never noticed them, or be bothered. But since someone mentioned it, I got interested.

 

Btw I've looked at all my recent images with SL + various M lenses, and the 90-280 — I don't see onion rings in any of my pics.

 

@mladen: If I download image #11 from http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2016/09/photokina-2016-day-1-checking-out-the-50mm-summilux-sl-asph-and-multifunction-handgrip/ (with the label L1040024-1-768x1152.jpg) and look at it with Lightroom or Iridient Developer at 100% magnification and normal contrast, I notice a bit of structure in the upper light blue blob along the upper edge. Other than that I wouldn't say the onions rings are very clear. It doesn't bother me. I find such an anomaly easy to ignore. It doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the image. My display is an old Apple Cinema Display (1680 X 1050)

 

@meerec: I'm kind of curious why I don't see the onion rings clearly when I download the image. I'm attaching a screen capture of a download and 100% crop of http://www.reddotforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/L1040024-1.jpg. No processing. The blobs aren't as large and the onion rings aren't as distinct as in your png.

 

blobs.png

 

 

dgktkr

[meerec]

Thanks for sharing the link.

 

The lens with the hood attached caught my attention. Look how large it seems ... this hood is humongous and the whole setup borders on ridiculous. Sorry for being emotional but it is just not for me. LOL

Thanks Leica. I'll save some money. Waiting for the Summicrons-SL.

 

 

Here's a comparison between the zoom and the new prime

 

http://www.fotointern.ch/archiv/2016/09/26/was-das-leica-summilux-sl-11450mm-und-ein-ferrari-gemeinsam-haben-koennten/

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[cirke]

For the size, it needs to be an Otus beater.

 

For me beating means better 3D effect and better Bokeh

all lenses today are sharp enough even a simple Canon f/1.8  for 90€

[cirke]

 For anyone interested in this lens, I do not see how you cannot spend the small amount to subscribe for a year and see his examples and evaluation...

 

I subscribed once but I prefer Diglloyd's reviews  and I don't want to pay anymore for a website from the 90' years

[scott kirkpatrick]

Reid's website has been updated.  It now plays on iPhones, iPads, Androids, as well as conventional displays. And it will respond to swipes and touches, if that is what you like.  His pictures, while not awe-inspiring, are a lot more interesting than Lloyd's.

 

scott

[cirke]

..... you forget that the SL is meant to be a 'system' camera, and as such Leica WILL be obliged to offer a full range of zooms and primes, fast and slow, big and not so big, although it may be several years before the final line-up is available.

 

 

a 24mm Shift lens for architecture  would be good

[cirke]

Reid's website has been updated.  It now plays on iPhones, iPads, Androids, as well as conventional displays. And it will respond to swipes and touches, if that is what you like. 

 

ok ! good to know for the website

[MediaFotografie]

...if someone want's to look for a DNG here is one

(nothing special, just another PK shoot):

 

http://www.vesta.uni-tuebingen.de/varia/leicaforum/L1000111.DNG 

 

(Summilux-SL @ 1,4)

 

 

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Guest VVJ]

Are we all not allowed to have discussions about what we don't like. Or is this a fanboys only club? 

 

The only thing worse than fanboys is disgruntled fanboys with an agenda.

 

No offense Adam but your endless rants soaked in negativity on this forum, getDPI, Disqus, etc are getting a bit old...

 

After about 10,000 images I feel I can say I like the 24-90mm and if other people (a small minority I feel) don't like it, it is not going to change my mind...

 

Similarly I will give the 50mm a try and make up my own mind.  Thank you.

[adamdewilde]

Ok, glad you like it.