M9 to S (006)

[Deliberate1]

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After 4 1/2 years and thousands of images with my M9, I am considering options.

The obvious move is to the M 240 for its different sensor, higher ISO, allegedly better OV, electronic focusing wizardry and overall refinement. The greatest limitation for me with the M9 its low light limitations - particularly in the shadows at 640 or above (which I do not use).The transition to the M also makes sense because I have three lovely lenses - Zeiss 35mm, Lux 50mm and Elmarit M 90mm.

But, of course, that is the practical right side of the brain talking. The left side, not hampered by such calculations, looks longingly at the S whose 006 iterations are now priced within striking distance of so of their little M brothers. Having shot medium format for several years with Rollei 6008, which I scanned with a Scitex Eversmart Pro II scanner and printed 24" square, I miss a big camera with big output. I carried that box all over the world. I will confess that much of the output when handheld was less than stellar owing to ASA 400 film and an f4 lens. But on a tripod, with mirror lockup and ASA 100 film with that Schneider 90 mm bazooka, the results were extraordinary. And I just love the square look.

The 006 generation is now within my financial reach, along with a 70 mm lens. I know that a perfectly shot image in perfect conditions will be splendid. I found that true with my M9 as well. But as time passed, I discovered that it is mostly a perfect camera for perfect situations. And that, unfortunately, has limited my work. Not to shoot something because it is outside the design parameters of your camera is a bitter pill.

I have read widely on the S 006. Again, perfect under perfect conditions. Many decry its size and weight. That is not a decisive issue for me given my experience with the Rollei. Though people, especially in the Middle East, scattered when I brought it to my eye. I wised up and started using the waist finder which was far less threatening. 

The S 006 seems to have similar ISO issues with questionable use above 800. Not so, obviously, with the 007 which is out of reach. Everyone raves about the big OV so I assume that critical focusing is not an issue. I am pretty good with focusing the M9, though struggle a bit in low light (if I shoot at all). The AF of the S would be a welcome option.

I would be using this camera hand held which also means the need for higher shutter speeds to offset mirror slap and my own vibration. I do tripod work as well in my more deliberate moments. That removes the personal vibration issues (is there a mirror lock-up as with Rollei?).

Ultimately, the M is a much "safer" bet as a walk-about camera. But I just can not get the idea of an S out of my head. For those of you who made that transition - for M9 to S - any regrets/advice?

Obliged,

David

[jip]

There is mirror lock up, and also a 2 second and 12 second self timer that automatically triggers the mirror up mode a few seconds before making the actual exposure.

[jip]

I've used the M9 and M240 a lot, but love the S!

[Deliberate1]

I've used the M9 and M240 a lot, but love the S!

So having shot all three, please do share.....

In what respects do you find that the S platform is stronger/weaker than the M's. 

And to the money question, with the M9, would you go for the M or S at this point, and why.

BTW, very nice work on your site.

David

[Printmaker]

I have both a M9 and a S2 (and a Monochrom). An embarrassment of riches, true, but acquired through trade ups and leftover studio gear.

 

As for the M9 vs S(2), both have similar looks but the IQ of the S2 is in a different league. It is delightful. Nothing wrong with the M9. It is my go-to camera when traveling. Other than a loud shutter/winder and ISO limitation, it is the perfect little camera. No reason in my mind to go with a M240. But the S cameras will move you onto another level altogether. Think 4x5 quality in a body only slightly larger than most pro DSLRs.

 

They are slightly slower than I like when shooting an event but faster than most flash recycle times. And they are heavy. No worse than a D4 style camera. Same for the lenses with the 35/70/120 being close in size and weight to most 24-70 or 16-35 zooms. In all, you are looking at a 10-15 pound kit. I often take my S2/70 and MM/50 out to events and it is compact and light enough though I would not want to hike miles with this kit in the tropical sun. That is where the M9 kit goes.

 

My advice would be to get an S or S2 and keep the M9 kit. But if you can not afford to keep the M9 kit, go S. $10-12K should get you a used camera and 2 used lenses. I'd go 45/100. But the 70 is even nicer than your 50 Lux so why not jump in with both feet and go 35,70,120?

[Deliberate1]

 

 

As for the M9 vs S(2), both have similar looks but the IQ of the S2 is in a different league. 

Very helpful reply. I must say that I am smitten by the look of the M9 files. When they (or I) are good, they are very good. To have that same characteristic in a larger, more malleable file would be a treat.

Can you tell me what your outside parameters are for shooting the S hand held - max ISO, shutter, etc. I realize that it might differ between your WA and tele lens. Just want to get a sense if the S would expand the shooting envelope beyond the M9, or if it would be narrower due to mirror slap. Thanks again.

David

[erlingmm]

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I have gone through S2, S006 and now S007. There is a certain difference going from S2 to S006, it is faster, crisper, 1+ stop better ISO. The files from the S006 are just incredibly beautiful, almost no PP is necessary, the colors are SO beautiful and natural. With one of the lighter lenses (70, 100mm) it is definitely a walk-around.

 

I upgraded to 007 because I got a decent price for the 006. The 007 is faster, both in operation and ISO. The increase in ISO (3200 is no problem, but under certain conditions you can go to 12.500, at least in BW), makes it a very general camera. I shot a full wedding on the 006 on ISO 800, beautiful, but it is a camera that requires light.

 

I had to sell the 006 to get the 007, but ideally, I would have kept it.

 

If you are tempted by the S system, but not ready to jump to 007, I would strongly encourage you to try the 006, it is a fantastic camera.

[rapids41]

I am thinking the same at the moment:

A ccd sensor like the one in the M9 of this size and the S lenses... Wow!

Unfortunately the price difference between the S2 and 006 is big.

[erlingmm]

I am thinking the same at the moment:

A ccd sensor like the one in the M9 of this size and the S lenses... Wow!

Unfortunately the price difference between the S2 and 006 is big.

 

Sensor-wise you get the same quality from the S2 as the 006, but the camera feels a bit older, and you lose approx. 1 stop compared to the 006. But the images (in daylight) are still beautiful.

[Deliberate1]

 

 

If you are tempted by the S system, but not ready to jump to 007, I would strongly encourage you to try the 006, it is a fantastic camera.

 

Many thanks.

When you do a wedding or walk-about, what are your typical ASA/aperature/shutter parameters? I believe I have to reconcile that I will not get the high end ISO with the S that I find so limiting with the M9. No camera does it all, much to our universal dismay. Certainly, the S007 gets closer. But I could do the S and, eventually, get a small mirrorless (Q, Sony RX1R, etc) for very low light situations. Build up a quiver of S lenses that could be used on SL or some later iteration. I think I have myself convinced. It usually happens...

[dritz]

You note the benefit of discretion in walking and shooting. The M is it, then. The S attracts attention. Hold it up to your face and your face is gone! If I were the size of Bigfoot the S would look reasonably sized... but I'm 5' 10" and 165lbs. So the S looks big.

 

That said, it can work with the 70 or 100 as these are the smallest lenses -- especially in crowds where you will be less likely to be noticed. That is a dream starter kit. If you already stand out, the S will only make you stand out more. The wide angle lenses are huge -- awesome but huge. Walking through Mumbai is better with an M and a 21-SEM. The S equivalent is laughably large... then there is the difference in DofF.

 

The DoF changes are significant, as you know. Street photography with an S is a different experience and with different visual results. Not bad but different.

 

If you can swing it get an S-E and a 70 and watch what happens.  The 100 is the reason to get an S. That would be my single lens kit but that lens used is 200% the cost of the 70.

 

Regards,

Dean

[topoxforddoc]

My Billingham holds both my M9 and S(006). They're two completely different beasts. The M9 is great when discretion is important, but the 006 blows it away in terms of IQ. The thing is that I can hand hold the M9 down to about 1/15th, but no way can you do that with the 006.

[erlingmm]

Many thanks.

When you do a wedding or walk-about, what are your typical ASA/aperature/shutter parameters? I believe I have to reconcile that I will not get the high end ISO with the S that I find so limiting with the M9. No camera does it all, much to our universal dismay. Certainly, the S007 gets closer. But I could do the S and, eventually, get a small mirrorless (Q, Sony RX1R, etc) for very low light situations. Build up a quiver of S lenses that could be used on SL or some later iteration. I think I have myself convinced. It usually happens...

 

Well, wedding and walk-abaout are two different things.

 

The wedding i referred to was on a light Norwegian summer evening in a house with large windows. Inside in dim light would not work. But I am not afraid to use flash when necessary.

 

The biggest challenge going to MF is how sensitive the system is to camera shake. On an M I could shout 1/x (x=lens mm) or less, on S I need 1/3x, that is, a 70 mm should be shot at at least 1/200. You can do slower, but unless you have trained yourself to stable positions, or plain luck, you will lose the advantage of the MF system. So, I optimise for an adequate shutter speed. It is better to have some grain from high ISO, than lack of sharpness from slow shutter.

 

For walk-about, again ensure that you have sufficient shutter speed. In daylight, it is usually not a problem, unless you have a very grey day. I usually shoot wide open, but be prepared for very shallow DOF, all the S-lenses are Noctilux-like wide open. Even the S24 (fantastic lens) has clear DOF wide open.

 

I always shoot manual, that is: Autofocus on the thumb button on the back of the camera. Manual override with fine adjustments on the lens when needed.

 

You're gonna love it! But it takes some time and exercise to get used to.

[Printmaker]

Very helpful reply. I must say that I am smitten by the look of the M9 files. When they (or I) are good, they are very good. To have that same characteristic in a larger, more malleable file would be a treat.

Can you tell me what your outside parameters are for shooting the S hand held - max ISO, shutter, etc. I realize that it might differ between your WA and tele lens. Just want to get a sense if the S would expand the shooting envelope beyond the M9, or if it would be narrower due to mirror slap. Thanks again.

David

I can shoot the S2 down to about 1/125 or even 1/60 on a good day and expect good results. I've gone down to 1/45 and 1/30 and gotten the shot but I doubt they would be considered critically sharp. And I'll go to ISO 320 or 640 without thinking twice. But I am one of those who likes to shoot at F4 or F5.6 so the lower ISO settings usually gives me a high shutter speed outdoors. It is shooting inside under so so light that is a problem when shooting hand held. I tend to go to a flash in that case. Or I'll use a tripod. Of course you can program a delay and lock the mirror up.

 

Getting back to your original question, if I were in your situation I'd sell your 50 Lux to fund a S2 with a 70 and keep the M9 with the 35 and 90. You would still need to spend some cash (about $4,000 to $4,500) but it would give you the best of both worlds.

[Deliberate1]

 Walking through Mumbai is better with an M and a 21-SEM. 

 

 

I hear you. Four years ago I traveled India for the first time - Delhi, Agra, Jaipur, Ranthambore, Kahajuraho and Varnasi, My first time in India and magic it was. Brought the M9. It was shortly after I got it and my images reflected my inexperience. But the ones that were on were very gratifying. If I stood out in India (and I did) I could not blame it on the camera. 

[Deliberate1]

Thanks all for your generous suggestions. The kit I am looking at includes the 70mm. Not CS. I understand that is the version optimized for flash. But is that flash, as in studio work? In other words, could I use a simple flash effectively with the non-CS lens?

David 

[xiaubauu2009]

The issue at the moment with S system is the durability of the Lens AF, other than that, it's a very lovely system.

[Deliberate1]

The issue at the moment with S system is the durability of the Lens AF, other than that, it's a very lovely system.

Am I correct that Leica has agreed to cover the cost of repairs even if out of warranty?

[Printmaker]

I'm using a simple SF24D flash and it works well. It is small and light. Fits into any pocket. Just not TTL. You need to step up to the SF 58 or a Metz unit to get TTL.

 

I still have a set of White Lightning studio flashes that I trigger with a diffusion covered SF24D. but tend to go to my Lowel Caselights as they are more consistent. ("I don't need to bracket; my flashes do that for me.")

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[Printmaker]

Am I correct that Leica has agreed to cover the cost of repairs even if out of warranty?

Leica fixes anything that is a design or production problem. It does not matter if you are the original owner or out of warranty. So, yes, problem auto focus on the S lenses is covered.