Leica SL Survey - Your Opinion?

[dkCambridgeshire]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

With regard to the Leica lens speed and zoom range, you also need to take into account that when zooming out from 24mm, the lens reportedly almost immediately goes to f/4.0.

 

There are several other manufacturers who make lenses very comparable in speed and zoom range, and at a much lower price. This, for one example.

 

There has been mention of a "Leica look" that comes partly from the lenses and partly from the sensor type. I am in complete agreement with this sentiment and it's what keeps me with the Leica brand. It's also why I am distressed to see the company going in a direction that I feel is a dead end. I'll be happy to eat those words if a year from now the SL has proved successful, but I really don't expect that to happen.

 

if Leica is heading in a new direction (which was planned over 3 years ago) but whilst still supporting and developing the M series, then why feel distressed? Whatever is being developed for the M and the S will be revealed when ready … Leica has a new factory with additional capacity. 

 

dunk

[kmak817]

I will buy one.  I am loving my Q, my first Leica experience, blown away by the IQ compared to the Sonys I have been using.  The SL is perfect for me for the various ski trips I take every winter, needing fast autofocus and a longer zoom lens.

[viramati]

So far I see nothing that would make me want to buy this camera over any over the competition apart from the EVF which should be a real step up. I only hope that the sensor does produce the banding in the shadow areas that the M and Q does when you try to open them up. The Leica M is of course unique in being the only FF rangefinder camera on the market and the Q (which I love) is also IMO in a case apart but I really don't see any advantage in this camera over say the Nikon &50 or Sony A7rII in fact I would have thought that R lens owners would probably be better off in some way with the A7rII which has IBIS, tilting screen and access now to an ever growing stock of excellent lenses

[stevenhacker]

It should be understood that I am and always have been a Leica fan beginning when my crazy wealthy European uncle gave me an M-3 for my 14th birthday. Today I have an M-9 with three Leica lenses that I use for my personal amusement. As a professional photographer I now shoot Sony A7RIIs with a collection of Zeiss and Sony prime and zoom lenses having replaced all of my Nikon gear (D4Ss and a dozen lenses) a month ago. Why? Sony's breath-taking breakthrough technology, ergonomic size and design, the list goes on and on. Now Leica comes in with the SL which at best is a flawed design priced outrageously for what it is capable of. I fear that Leica is now peddling very hard to catch up to competitors and has strayed from a highly defined core value system. In the 21st century photography whether for hobbyist or professional has shifted to technology and new capabilities that allow us to capture images that heretofore were impossible. While I love my M-9 for what it does it simply cannot compete with the low light capabilities, resolution, stability, etc. of many competitors. I predict that the SL will become a camera for those who must also have an Hermes bag to place on the back seat of their Bentley. Too bad. For me, I will continue to enjoy my M-9 when I'm not working.

[algrove]

Main difference yes but also speed. One can hope that the next M will have the same innards but it is a smaller body so we'll have to accept some compromises most probably. Now i don't need 11 fps personally.

Thanks for reading between the lines, since I am also waiting to see what the next M offers. Having purchased 8 M240, I know that one works.

[bobfromfpl]

I've owned a Leica SL, SL2 and R8 and several Leitz lenses. Wonderful quality equipment and a joy to use. I always desired an M but the flexibility of reflex cameras overrode. 

I think the SL is a very fine camera. The problem for me at this time is not only the cost of an SL but the fact that it is a digital camera similar to the Sony A7Rii.

More to the point, digital technology changes too rapidly to make such an investment. Changing a digital camera body is equivalent to switching films.

When manufactures are charging as much as they do for top digital cameras, they should design them to be upgradable.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

[lct]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Thanks for reading between the lines, since I am also waiting to see what the next M offers. Having purchased 8 M240, I know that one works.

 

Hi Louis, i've decided to postpone my order until focus magnification matches my expectations on the SL601. If it takes several months, as it did to get decent auto iso on the M240, i will forget the SL and concentrate on the next M most probably. The latter will be faster than the M240 in LV/EVF mode hopefully.

[fotografr]

if Leica is heading in a new direction (which was planned over 3 years ago) but whilst still supporting and developing the M series, then why feel distressed? Whatever is being developed for the M and the S will be revealed when ready … Leica has a new factory with additional capacity. 

 

dunk

 

Perhaps distressed was too strong a word. After all, I don't own stock in the company. I do, however, own (and love) a lot of Leica equipment and want to be able to continue that relationship for a long time. I'm not trying to bad mouth Leica, but I'd have been a lot happier to see them put the R&D money into refining the M line rather than going out on what i see as a weak limb.

[Likaleica]

Leica Camera AG. Period. I am not sure if its the right place to discuss Leica price policy worlwide but with such policy Moscow Stores are becoming SHOWROOMS where you can try the camera and buy it abroad. I hope somebode from Leica reads this forum.

Its not state and its not tax or custom duties -  for example Audemars Piguet and Swatch Group have the same prices for the watch as they have in Europe.

Its a greed.  I am really frustrated by such behaviour of Leica.

 

Velicht die Deutcheren aus Leica haben der laster Krieg nicht vergessen!  Entschuldigen Sie, bitte, mein Deutch und autokorrekt auf Deutch. 

[Likaleica]

Or maybe it's a Leica tariff on the high price of Russian oil.

[CheshireCat]

One can hope that the next M will have the same innards

 

Actually, I hope the next M will have much better innards than the SL.

[CheshireCat]

But the % mark-up on watches is far, far greater than that on cameras.

 

How much do you think the SL production cost is ?

[rshseow]

I will buy one, although I am not a professional photographer, it is for my collection of LTM, M, R and T lenses. Plus its 4K video...... and future (seemingly long waiting) SL prime lenses.

[rshseow]

The problem for me at this time is not only the cost of an SL but the fact that it is a digital camera similar to the Sony A7Rii.

More to the point, digital technology changes too rapidly to make such an investment....

 

 

Agree with bobfromfpl, on the above.

 

With a slightly different perspective, I get the multi-purpose SL "whose" EVF, 24MP, 4K Video, WiFi, GPS, usability for my LTM, M, R, T lenses can fulfill my "hope" that such investment can last for 5 years, or longer (wish! wish! wish!). And then, using my current M and small M lenses for walk-about photography.

[jgmb]

After reading the posts in this thread and many others, plus the few initial reviews, here is my take… 

 

The SL is clearly the rebirth of the R tradition, reinvented for the 21st century. For 40 years the R was a parallel "system" to the M family, with a lens range covering all focal lengths with telephotos, macros, zooms, and fast primes many of which were considered to be best in class. But all were manual focus optimized for film and not digital sensors. Leica now wants to re-enter the market they abandoned when they retired the R. The cropped DMR experiment was a failure and Leica decided that instead of coming out with yet another digital mirror box dSLR, they would leapfrog the competition with an EVIL FF camera once EVF technology improved enough, so the R10 was cancelled. The M240 as a "R solution" is merely an interim stopgap kluge. The add-on EVF is mediocre and the rangefinder superfluous with R lenses.

 

Instead of merely an R solution, the SL should be viewed as a whole new digital FF platform aimed at professionals who require high speed shooting,  AF and IS lenses, including telephotos, zooms, and macros all with the highest IQ mounted on a rugged, weatherproof body. Such a body needs to be sized proportionally to balance large and heavy lenses. CaNikon currently offer such pro solutions, but Leica adds a best-in-class large EVF and going forward will gradually grow a new FF AF lens line as they did with the S. No camera maker introducing a brand new mount can have a broad lens lineup ready on day one. In the interim, what Leica now provides us is a universal FF digital back that will work with every lens Leica ever made, including their Cine lenses! The SL however is not solely for Leica's legacy glass, but will serve as the platform for a whole new R replacement ecosystem far into the future.

 

Price? About the same as Canon 1DC, slightly higher than M 240 and Nikon D4s. Much lower than S, and much higher than Sony A7RII.

 

Size? slightly larger and heavier than M240, but smaller and lighter than D4s, D810, 1DC, 5DS or even Leica R8/R9 (without DMR!). SL is about the same size in hand as the original R3 and Leicaflex. A perfectly balanced size for mounting large, zoom telephotos and fast primes with AF and IS.

 

IQ? Remains to be seen, but the sensor should match the Q and the S on a per pixel basis with the new telecentric lenses. Think S and Otus quality.

 

Design? I know I am in the minority here, but I find it beautiful. I love the clean, minimalist German Bauhaus looks, without the baroque curves and visual clutter of buttons and dials (common to CaNikon dSLRs or the retro DF!). The SL is a blend of the intuitive S interface with modern T and Q aesthetics, while paying homage to its origins (it reminds me of the R3). This style will likely be Leica's design lexicon for future cameras. It is not to everyone's tastes for sure, but neither is modernism or minimalism to those who favor traditional visual familiarity over a break with conventional norms. 

 

Leica is playing the long game. For rangefinder stalwarts, the M will endure as a separate product line serving that niche. But for photographers who require speed, AF, IS and long lenses with Leica IQ plus pro 4K video and the best EVF, as well as the ability to use any Leica lens ever made, the SL is the only solution. It won't be the right camera for every photographic need, but it fills a major hole in the Leica lineup.

 

Will I buy one? Admittedly, I am a longtime R user and have been waiting ten years for a true digital R solution. But I don't need AF, zooms, long lenses or 11fps. I am primarily a wide-angle deep focus landscape shooter of both stills and 4K video, who desires compact, super sharp lenses with manual focus. So I am not sure if I will buy this camera… yet!  But if and when Leica comes out with new Otus grade SL Elmarit or Elmar primes in 15mm, 18mm, 21 mm and 25mm focal lengths, I may reconsider. Like many, I was hoping for a Q with a T mount. That camera is very close in size to the A7RII, which I am also considering. Such a size factor feels as comfortable in my hands as did the old R4 with compact lenses. 

 

The price of the SL is a concern for me. Until the lens lineup expands, I can get an A7RII + Zeiss Loxia 21mm and use my R lenses on it, plus have IBIS, 4K and the cropping headroom of 42 mp. If I were to bite the bullet and get the SL now, I would forego the new SL 24-90 and buy the compact WATE for about the same price. But that is still nearly double the cost of A7RII + Loxia. I am not a pro so I can't amortize such an investment. But just because the SL was not designed for MY particular narrow needs, does not make it an ill-conceived camera nor a miscalculation on Leica's part as some on here are insisting. I think the SL will eventually grow on photographers once they actually try it and it may become very successful for Leica long-term, if not at the outset. 

 

Here's hoping that someday Leica will also introduce an L mount Q body with SL grade EVF for around $5k that can be best paired with compact primes. In that case I would be all over it in a heartbeat!

[CheshireCat]

Just watched the CNET review, and they say that the 11 fps are actually 7 fps if you want continuous AE/AF.

[Leicaiste]

So far I see nothing that would make me want to buy this camera over any over the competition apart from the EVF which should be a real step up. I only hope that the sensor does produce the banding in the shadow areas that the M and Q does when you try to open them up. The Leica M is of course unique in being the only FF rangefinder camera on the market and the Q (which I love) is also IMO in a case apart but I really don't see any advantage in this camera over say the Nikon &50 or Sony A7rII in fact I would have thought that R lens owners would probably be better off in some way with the A7rII which has IBIS, tilting screen and access now to an ever growing stock of excellent lenses

 

Regarding the Sony A7's, for me they were never a viable solution for R or L lenses.

 

To small for many big R lenses, not great with L wide-angle lenses, sound of the shutter much to noisy, 6 different models in two years (October 2013-October 2015). 

 

The only advantage over the SL is the IBIS and that only since a few weeks, which means that one should have bought several A7's over less than two years to stay ahead.

 

Other than IBIS, the SL is a better solution for R lenses and L wide angle.

 

By the way, for my eyesight, my M and its poor EVF is not the best solution either for many of those beautiful lenses. And with the M rangefinder I find it sometimes difficult to focus lenses like the Noctilux, 75, 90 and 135. BTW I was in love with the 0,85 finder.

 

Granted, it took Leica 10 years to evolve from the DMR to the SL and 6 years since the dismissing of the R9. My last DMR batteries are dying or are dead.

 

The SL is there just in time for a replacement.

 

;-)

[satijntje]

 

By the way, for my eyesight, my M and its poor EVF is not the best solution either for many of those beautiful lenses. And with the M rangefinder I find it sometimes difficult to focus lenses like the Noctilux, 75, 90 and 135. BTW I was in love with the 0,85 finder.

 

 

 

+1

[rshseow]

Leica SL may be the best EVF solution for Leica M lenses.

 

Sony A7 series are not convenient solution to use Leica M lenses, even after Kolarivision thin sensor cover glass modification. It can get corner sharpness, however the modified thinner cover glass messes up white balance which is a moving target to edit in post processing. I tested all my M lenses and get good sharpness but give up due to messy white balance at post processing work flow. It become a chore rather than fun!

 

Some tests from Jim Kasson and Diglloyd:

 

Jim Kasson:

 

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=10713

 

Sony A7II Kolarivision Mod: Leica M lenses vs Unmodified

"You will note that the color balance is different between the two images, with the Kolari stack being bluer. I used Daylight white balance for both in Lightroom which was otherwise set to use the defaults. ISO was 100, and the cameras were on a tripod. I should"

 

Diglloyd:

Sony A7R II Kolarivision Mod: Zeiss Batis 25mm vs Unmodified Camera

"Color balance: Same behavior as with the 50/2 APO and as with the 28/1.4 Summilux: the modified camera requires a radically different white balance and tint than an unmodified camera; the image turns bluish and greenish, necessitating a higher color temperature and a big dose of magenta tint. White balance and tint were set using the white area of the target shown below to determine these figures, Camera Profile = Adobe Standard." Full info is for subscription only, gotta respect author's Copyright.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[earleygallery]

Leica SL may be the best EVF solution for Leica M lenses.

 

Surely the M is the best EVF solution for M lenses, even if the (current) EVF isn't as good ?