Loren Posted October 16, 2015 Share #81 Posted October 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Colonel: It seems you like to misinterpret comments to make counter arguments. I did not mention using an old sensor or degrading the battery or not being innovative. Pretty much all you got right was that I'd prefer if the camera didn't have all sorts of non-Das Wesentliche gizmos. In contrast, I called for a new sensor (perhaps one that doesn't only please folks who take photos in dark alleys, but also those who shoot primarily at lower ISOs). (Sensors haven't seen advances at lower ISOs since the M9. Like or not the m240, but its censor is certainly no better [perhaps even worse] at lower ISOs than that of the aged M9, which was released a long, long time ago when it comes to technology.) I did not suggest degrading the battery, but, instead, having one that didn't weigh so much that it boosts camera weight beyond the norm from M6-M9. (Ah, now that'd be innovative.) Moreover, I intimated the need for innovation in terms of having a contemporary sensor, processor, etc. Yes, I'd prefer if the camera were simple and without video and focus peaking (even 4g) (Das Wesentliche). If the camera had these functions (which I wouldn't use), their presence shouldn't be an excuse for a heavier camera (as was the case with the m240). What I recommended could be termed "digital Das Wesentliche." Such would be a suicide note for Leica? (Oh, the drama.) I doubt it, seeing how many lives Leica has had (e.g., M5, M8 increased IR sensitivity problem, M9 sensor corrosion, m240 color palette). Heck, Leica has even weathered releasing a camera named after a pseudo-rock star! A Das Wesentliche digital M would sell well and might even bring some tremendous photographers back into the Leica fold. Your comment about not letting me near a digital camera was quite smug. I have had and still have digital cameras, but also understand that those old film ones still take fine photos, too. Totsiens ... I don't think the M 240 represents the quintessential development of sensors, so using that sensor as an example for your argument is not valid. To be fair, it isn't just the sensor, but also the engine behind it that makes the image. Both need to be included in the argument. If you include the wider world of all full-frame cameras by other manufactures you quickly see that low ISO performance has improved over the years along with high ISO performance. I submit to you that my Nikon D800, which was released before the M 240 trounces my M 240 IQ at any ISO. I just prefer using the M 240 over the D800 for a host of other reasons, but I am under no delusions about the limitations of my Leicas. Leica is not a front runner in the world of technological development. They are more a fast follower and part of that is because they are not the giant that other corporations are and do not have the deep pockets that they do for development. The other half of that is they are a niche product and don't necessarily need to be. However, it would be nice if they closed that technological gap a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Hi Loren, Take a look here Next M Camera. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Peter H Posted October 16, 2015 Share #82 Posted October 16, 2015 When you look at a scene what is in the centre of your field of view becomes the subject because your vision system works best there; you also focus on that subject. If you make a picture with a subject (signalled in whatever way - focus, splash of colour, emotion jerking object, ...) off to one side then when you look at that picture you will put the subject in the centre of your field of view which means one side of your vision will be background picture and the other side will be gallery wall. This is an approach like any other, but is it worth doing more than once in ten thousand images? And if not is it worth making the camera more complex for? Your viewers are going to centralise the subject anyway; why not stick it in the middle? I rarely place my main subject bang in the middle of the photo. But I don't feel a strong need for a moveable focus patch. Because I'm so used to focussing and re-composing I seem to do it automatically without thinking about it, so it's never really occurred to me that there's a problem, because there isn't. It might be nice to have one but as with many other customisable features, i suspect it may just add a new little complication, another thing to consciously think about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 16, 2015 Share #83 Posted October 16, 2015 I don't think the M 240 represents the quintessential development of sensors, so using that sensor as an example for your argument is not valid. I submit to you that my Nikon D800, which was released before the M 240 trounces my M 240 IQ at any ISO. I just prefer using the M 240 over the D800 for a host of other reasons, but I am under no delusions about the limitations of my Leicas. Leica is not a front runner in the world of technological development. They are more a fast follower and part of that is because they are not the giant that other corporations are and do not have the deep pockets that they do for development. The other half of that is they are a niche product and don't necessarily need to be. However, it would be nice if they closed that technological gap a bit. I submit to you that "trounces" gets us into the fanboy trolling language. I'll steer clear of that, but I will say that as a matter of fact, at the time the 240 was released and revived by DxO, the Leica sensor was actually the 4th best sensor and very close in dynamic range of the three leaders, which included edging past the Cannon 5DIII. And, the M240 produces wonderful color, which for me, I just don't appreciate with the Nikon D800. Roger at Lens Rental reviewed the Leica Summilux and APO Summicron along with the best 50mm dSLR lenses including the Zeiss Otus and found no lens that scores as well as the Summicron 50mm APO for center and corner sharpness. The Summilux 50 was probably second as the Otus has soft corners. By the way the Sigma Art scored very well and based on sharpness was better in the center than the Summilux, but not the Summicron. Sensors are just one aspect of a camera system. So, if you aren't a birds and bugs photographer, and want a light weight system that gives the sharpest image with the best color, the M240 is right up there. It may not have the best Mega pixel count at this time, remember we are talking about a 2012 camera, but it would be wrong characterize Leica as struggling to keep a spot at the back of the pack. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted October 16, 2015 Share #84 Posted October 16, 2015 I could envision the utility of a moveable focus patch if I used the EVF for other than ultra wide angle lenses (because it's more convenient than switching multiple accessory finders), but even then only if I had the camera on a tripod. Otherwise I have no problem focusing through the EVF at full-screen just like an SLR, and I have peaking turned off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 16, 2015 Share #85 Posted October 16, 2015 I always put my subject dead center. Where else should it go-to the corner? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted October 16, 2015 Share #86 Posted October 16, 2015 I always put my subject dead center. Where else should it go-to the corner? You might want to study works of some great photographers. Just sayin'....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornnb Posted October 16, 2015 Share #87 Posted October 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I submit to you that my Nikon D800, which was released before the M 240 trounces my M 240 IQ at any ISO. I just prefer using the M 240 over the D800 for a host of other reasons, but I am under no delusions about the limitations of my Leicas. Leica is not a front runner in the world of technological development. They are more a fast follower and part of that is because they are not the giant that other corporations are and do not have the deep pockets that they do for development. The other half of that is they are a niche product and don't necessarily need to be. However, it would be nice if they closed that technological gap a bit. I completely disagree with the statement that Leica is not a front runner. They built the worlds first full frame mirrorless cameras in the M9 and M240. Plus they especially designed the sensor to work with extreme ray angles. At the moment Sony (which Nikon uses) has the lead in sensor technology. However the sensor Leica uses is a very good one, and is much better than Canon's in dynamic range. Here are some stats on sensor performance from Dxo: Leica M240 Color Depth 24 bits Dynamic Range 13.3 EV ISO score 1860 Leica M9 Color Depth 22.5 bits Dynamic Range 11.7 EV ISO score 884 Nikon D810 Color Depth 25.7 bits Dynamic Range 14.8 EV ISO score 2853 Sony A7R Color Depth 25.6 bits Dynamic Range 14.1 EV ISO score 2746 Canon 5Ds Color Depth 24.6 bits Dynamic Range 12.4 EV ISO score 2308 Canon 5D Mark III Color Depth 24 bits Dynamic Range 11.7 EV ISO score 2293 Canon 5D Mark II Color Depth 23.7 bits Dynamic Range 11.9 EV ISO score 1815 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 17, 2015 Share #88 Posted October 17, 2015 You might want to study works of some great photographers. Just sayin'....... And maybe a painter or two... Or an architect or two... Golden third as but one concept... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted October 17, 2015 Share #89 Posted October 17, 2015 I always put my subject dead center. Where else should it go-to the corner? You might want to study works of some great photographers. Just sayin'....... Don't you think, just perhaps, that Algrove was being sarcastic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 17, 2015 Share #90 Posted October 17, 2015 I would think so. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 17, 2015 Share #91 Posted October 17, 2015 I hope so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted October 17, 2015 Share #92 Posted October 17, 2015 When the M240 was introduced there was nothing wrong with the sensor. In fact it was probably the best available alternative to the previous CCD which Lieca chose to replace. However the viewfinder choice and the Maestro software was seriously outdated (obsolete would the choice here). Unfortunately in the digital world the lowest common denominator determines obsolescence and for Leica being a boutique manufacturer, it's hard to keep up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted October 17, 2015 Share #93 Posted October 17, 2015 Don't you think, just perhaps, that Algrove was being sarcastic? And, just perhaps, maybe I was being sarcastic too?? You think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted October 17, 2015 Share #94 Posted October 17, 2015 Sorry if that's what you meant but I didn't read it that way.. Always a problem with brief electronic communications. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 17, 2015 Share #95 Posted October 17, 2015 You might want to study works of some great photographers. Just sayin'....... You might want to study Louis' works. Just sayin'...... http://blog.leica-camera.com/photographers/interviews/louis-foubare-making-every-minute-count/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted October 17, 2015 Share #96 Posted October 17, 2015 Some nicely centered subjects there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted October 17, 2015 Share #97 Posted October 17, 2015 I always put my subject dead center. Where else should it go-to the corner? and you are right , the center is the center :-) exactly where our eyes are focusing nowhere else Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted October 17, 2015 Share #98 Posted October 17, 2015 And maybe a painter or two... Or an architect or two... Golden third as but one concept... Jeff You know the meaning of golden third or you just apply it because others does ? i don't belive in god why should I use golden third ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 17, 2015 Share #99 Posted October 17, 2015 You know the meaning of golden third or you just apply it because others does ? i don't belive in god why should I use golden third ? Did you read the words 'as but one concept'? Where did I say anything about what you or others should use? Thanks, but after 40+ years studying and practicing in the arts, I think I understand at least a few things... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted October 17, 2015 Share #100 Posted October 17, 2015 Back to the next camera, waiting for the announcement is driving us nuts!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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