honcho Posted July 19, 2015 Share #61 Posted July 19, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) With no reference to anyone in particular, this forum is crippled by it's current administration policies. Whilst those who moderate probably do so within their remit, few, if any, have any direct experience or are knowledgeable about the photography industry as a whole. As it stands, I enjoy the galleries, especially Henry's thread because film is king in Leicaland and some contributor's links to personal blogs and websites. I'll also gladly offer advice if it may be of help to anyone. The rest is mainly sideshow with varying degrees of interest, derision and mirth, but it clearly is a popular forum for many who seem to spend their waking lives on it and therefore serves some sort of purpose. I can accept that railing against the administrators and their policies is likely to be unproductive, so maybe the forum is best left to be what it is and take the political and other controversial stuff elsewhere. Most of it will never advance anyone's political awareness or photography anyway! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Hi honcho, Take a look here Curious moderation. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
likealot Posted July 19, 2015 Share #62 Posted July 19, 2015 Ah, you see? There is a rationalization of our Texas "Y'all". Then there is the deep Arkansas "Yuhzin". Hope y'all will consider the modest improvement on the King's English. Queen's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 21, 2015 Share #63 Posted July 21, 2015 This thread was started with the funny moderation of this forum as its topic. The immediate cause for the funny moderation was a discussion thread about recent events in Greece. Please do not start discussing Greece and related topics in this thread which is a thread about the rules of this forum and its moderation. I have moved a number of posts which looked Greek to me to the original thread on Greece. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 21, 2015 Share #64 Posted July 21, 2015 I would like you (y'all ?) to consider the following points, which are entirely mine: The proprietor of this forum has stated his explicit wish that political topics are not to be discussed in his forum. He has confirmed this to be his wish in public several times. Moderators have, of course, some influence, but they do not make the forum rules for him. They merely assist him in running his forum the way he wants it run. In doing so, they certainly signal that they respect those rules, even if they would not impose the same set of rules on their own forums. I don't know if you gentlemen think it friendly to start political discussions here against his explicit wishes and start arguing about the rule after the fact. I don't think anyone would mind a very heated debate about that particular rule before the fact, and I would not place any bets on the way the individual moderators would vote on that matter in a free discussion. I seem to observe from time to time a recurring pattern: patrons starts a thread on a topic which may or may not be called political. After a short while, someone declares the thread to be a political one, and not long after someone demands equal rights and consistent handling and therefore supposes the ban on political discussions to have died a silent death. Well, one can but try. To me it feels like people trying to outsmart moderators, and I think that must be about as thrilling as shooting sitting ducks or fish in a barrel. I have seen here very valid and interesting points about the ban in this forum on political topics and I would rather see them being discussed in general terms and not - again - following an attempt by moderators to restore some status or other. I also think a discussion could be conducted on a much more even level if it had not to start with the parties at opposing positions. My €0.02 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 21, 2015 Share #65 Posted July 21, 2015 Once again I worry that economics might be considered politics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 21, 2015 Share #66 Posted July 21, 2015 Once again I worry that economics might be considered politics. That, I fear, would much depend on your educational background and perhaps even on where on earth you live, and this very question might be one of the root causes for our current discussion about the funny moderation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted July 21, 2015 Share #67 Posted July 21, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Anything & everything outside (direct) Photography can be slanted towards politics.. Photography comes from the inner soul, anger, pain, heartbreak etc. etc.. The images produced are the way the artist sees the image within the confines of life & the scene before him/her.. No politics Oh My"" - Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted July 21, 2015 Share #68 Posted July 21, 2015 Anything & everything outside (direct) Photography can be slanted towards politics.. Photography comes from the inner soul, anger, pain, heartbreak etc. etc.. The images produced are the way the artist sees the image within the confines of life & the scene before him/her.. No politics Oh My"" - A lot of photography is very political. Perhaps all of it is. What is not read as being political to one person can be highly political to another, and photography is no exception to this tangled web of human thought. In simplistic terms, for example; to a revolutionary, anything that bolsters the status quo is political. To a conservative, anything that threatens the status quo is political. But to either side, half of the politics in the world is invisible since it appears to them simply the exercise of common sense, or perhaps not even that, perhaps it seems like normal, uncontroversial, even private life. As much of it does to us, because we all combine elements of conservatism and revolt, and so cannot see a lot of politics even when it stares us in the face. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2015 Share #69 Posted July 21, 2015 I hope this is not a political statement: Not many years ago we've lost unexpectedly a good friend, who was a keen Nikon landscape b&w photographer (during his last ten years only with zooms, because he very rarely cropped) and an excellent dark-room expert. He also had a Rollei TLR, that he used once or twice per year, only to go back every time to his 24X36 negs, saying that they're big enough for him. His sons kept the Nikon lenses, sold the 3 F2 bodies (with sportsfinders! He always rested his angled left hand on the finder, never without a tripod) the Pentax spotmeter. They offered me the Rollei, that was pristine. I declined, being very happy with some of his prints, not wanting to feel sad when I take portraits (TLR domain for me). But I put it on ebay and it went to Greece. Here's the feed-back I gave the buyer: "Super fast payment from an expert and gentleman. Thank you very much, Apostolos!" Looking it up today, he's bought nothing more than the 7 articles back then, sold nothing either. He wrote to me, that he only had a very used TLR Rollei, also always used a tripod and bw film, did his own labwork and that this will be his special-occasions-camera. I hope you're fine and wish you serene hours with your Rollei, Apostolos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted July 21, 2015 Share #70 Posted July 21, 2015 A lot of photography is very political. Perhaps all of it is. What is not read as being political to one person can be highly political to another, and photography is no exception to this tangled web of human thought. In simplistic terms, for example; to a revolutionary, anything that bolsters the status quo is political. To a conservative, anything that threatens the status quo is political. But to either side, half of the politics in the world is invisible since it appears to them simply the exercise of common sense, or perhaps not even that, perhaps it seems like normal, uncontroversial, even private life. As much of it does to us, because we all combine elements of conservatism and revolt, and so cannot see a lot of politics even when it stares us in the face. Yes, it is a fine line, if they can be separated at all. However, political discussion may also include images...a thousand words etc. This is harder to moderate. Just think back to the photographs posted here during the Israel Gaza war. Some were posted for human interest and their photographic merit. Separating these from their potential political overtones, or others obviously posted to make a political comment was difficult. Many of us found it a very polarising and confronting time here on the Forum (as I found some of the material posted offensive and biased, and not what I wanted to confront on a photographic forum I go to for recreation). Often the photographs were allowed but comment to offset or balance their implications was discouraged. A lot of political images and comments were posted at that time before being 'moderated/modified'. Overall, the Mods did manage to steer the Forum well through that difficult time. Yet I read the Greek thread with interest but dispassionately as my political views on it are more 'emotionally detached'. So for some people political discussion is an interesting and intellectual exercise but for others the same subject can be very difficult and confronting. I can understand Andreas position on political (and I assume religious) discussion but it is indeed a fine line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted July 22, 2015 Share #71 Posted July 22, 2015 Life, Leica, Photography & Politics are the Soup of our Existence!! I wonder if The Donald has a Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted July 22, 2015 Share #72 Posted July 22, 2015 Yes, it is a fine line, if they can be separated at all. However, political discussion may also include images...a thousand words etc. This is harder to moderate. Just think back to the photographs posted here during the Israel Gaza war. Some were posted for human interest and their photographic merit. Separating these from their potential political overtones, or others obviously posted to make a political comment was difficult. Many of us found it a very polarising and confronting time here on the Forum (as I found some of the material posted offensive and biased, and not what I wanted to confront on a photographic forum I go to for recreation). Often the photographs were allowed but comment to offset or balance their implications was discouraged. A lot of political images and comments were posted at that time before being 'moderated/modified'. Overall, the Mods did manage to steer the Forum well through that difficult time. Yet I read the Greek thread with interest but dispassionately as my political views on it are more 'emotionally detached'. So for some people political discussion is an interesting and intellectual exercise but for others the same subject can be very difficult and confronting. I can understand Andreas position on political (and I assume religious) discussion but it is indeed a fine line. I take your point Mark, and of course we all understand why there is moderation, even though some of us regret the fact. But I'm making a slightly different point. Since we all tend to be half-blind when it comes to politics, and find it harder to recognise things as political the closer they are to our own points of view, it is very hard for any moderator to effectively monitor political content. So we end up with a fairly simplistic approach which only recognises overtly political content, e.g. party politics and elections and so on, and almost entirely miss the point that a photo of a glass of wine on a restaurant table can carry as strong a political message as a debate about whether to vote for Donald Trump or Hilary Clinton. Everything has context, but no one is omniscient and no one can read all the signals all the time. That is why I find photography such a profoundly exciting and important subject, by the way. The point is, whether something is interpreted as political is down to the interpreter. It is subjective. Of course there'll be some common ground: we all twitch as soon as someone uses the word "Thatcher" because we recognise the obvious signals, regardless of our political leanings. This leaves the way open for insidious and frequently unintentional political messages to get through the whole time. So what I'm saying is this: it isn't really anything to do with avoiding politics. It is simply a commercial algorithm, but who knows whether it works? Who knows how popular the site might be if it were different? Of course finding out the answer to that question would be too commercially risky an experiment so we stick with what works well enough. But since I value this forum so highly,and take photography so seriously, I really don't like the way we kid ourselves that we're doing something good here, that we're avoiding upsetting our sensitive members and keeping everything nice and friendly by avoiding that nasty subject of politics. We're not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted July 22, 2015 Share #73 Posted July 22, 2015 The town says "No selling of snake oil" !! We say, even the mayor agrees it's beneficial. So the answer is, sell it outside the town limits.. The rules are the rules, the Moderators diligently honor their roles, we" the unwashed and huddled masses push back. We walk the streets but do not own the Town! So life @ The Forum becomes a little tamer. Viva la Revolution"" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 22, 2015 Share #74 Posted July 22, 2015 Who said "rules are made to be broken" ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted July 22, 2015 Share #75 Posted July 22, 2015 Somebody who wants to break the rules perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 22, 2015 Share #76 Posted July 22, 2015 Since we all tend to be half-blind when it comes to politics, and find it harder to recognise things as political the closer they are to our own points of view, it is very hard for any moderator to effectively monitor political content. That is a striking observation and gives me pause for thought. Thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 23, 2015 Share #77 Posted July 23, 2015 I really don't like the way we kid ourselves that we're doing something good here, that we're avoiding upsetting our sensitive members and keeping everything nice and friendly by avoiding that nasty subject of politics. We're not. Indeed. And few statements are more inherently political than 'political topics are not to be discussed'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 23, 2015 Share #78 Posted July 23, 2015 Everyone has their own areas of sensitivity. At one newspaper where I interned, the executive editor hated - and absolutely banned pictures of - snakes and spiders. One night someone screwed up, and a largish close-up picture of a spider got printed. (News value - it was a species newly-discovered by a local researcher). Fortunately, his wife was first to collect the paper from the lawn the next morning, saw the offending image, and ripped out the page before he saw it. A different approach to moderation from a different era. Sometimes you just have to bow to the wishes of the man in charge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 23, 2015 Share #79 Posted July 23, 2015 Andreas gives a reason for his decision not to allow discussion about certain topics: The conflicts and animosities in Café Leitz are spreading to other parts of the forum. That is why, with immediate effect, we are going to close and remove discussions of that kind in Café Leitz and elsewhere. Our decision will appear subjective but it is based on our experience as a moderator and on what is best for the forum. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/209327-what-the-leica-forum-is-for/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 23, 2015 Share #80 Posted July 23, 2015 To add: on the international Forum read Barnack's Bar for Café Leitz. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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