Jump to content

What the Leica Forum is for


Recommended Posts

  • 3 years later...

 

No more political, ideological or religious discussion

 

Café Leitz was set up at the end of 2011 as a place for off-topic discussions. Lately it has become, unfortunately, a place for regulars to air subjects which have nothing to do with Leica or photography (OK, off-topic) but do have maximum potential for stirring up trouble. And that is not OK.

 

The conflicts and animosities in Café Leitz are spreading to other parts of the forum. That is why, with immediate effect, we are going to close and remove discussions of that kind in Café Leitz and elsewhere. Our decision will appear subjective but it is based on our experience as a moderator and on what is best for the forum.

 

 

 

Translation by euston (Thanks!)

 

I'd like to suggest a loosening of this restriction. When photos are posted which have religious or political content, it seems to me a discussion of that content is valid. If such discussion begins in a thread and is unrelated to the images, I agree it should be stopped. However, I see nothing wrong with images provoking political or religious discussion by their content.

 

If the purpose of this rule is to prevent hostile and abusive behavior, then discussion of Leica products should also be banned. By far the most heated exchanges I've read on this forum in the 15 years I've been involved with it have been about the relative qualities of Leica cameras and lenses.

 

Best Regards,

Edited by jaapv
repaired quote
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry no.

We gathered a lot (and I mean A LOT) of experience with political discussions.

And we are not going to loosen or change this rule.
 

If the purpose of this rule is to prevent hostile and abusive behavior, then discussion of Leica products should also be banned. By far the most heated exchanges I've read on this forum in the 15 years I've been involved with it have been about the relative qualities of Leica cameras and lenses.


The big difference is:
This forum is meant for discussions about Leica.

We the moderators are happy to invest a lot of time in managing discussions about Leica.

But it's not our task to waste our time with discussions we know in advance they are going to escalate.
 

If such discussion begins in a thread and is unrelated to the images, I agree it should be stopped.


And then starts the next discussion about censorship and about the bias of the moderators etc.

Sorry, no. But No. Really.

Sorry for my impatience. But this is a zombie discussion that shows up again and again and again.
We made up our decision the hard way and every time we tried to loosen the rules it went out bad and caused real damage on the community.

Andreas

Link to post
Share on other sites

I strongly disagree with this decision. You are deciding before the fact that we members are incapable of having adult discussions and controlling our emotions. In the case of my thread which was locked, a valuable exchange of ideas was taking place. If we are only to be allowed to discuss the mechanics of photographs and not the content or the motive for making them, then this forum might as well be for nothing but snapshots of flowers.

 

After 15 years on this forum, I am now seriously considering taking my leave and wishing you all a happy future. I do not think I can abide participating in an enterprise where I am treated like a child whose behavior needs to be controlled.

Edited by fotografr
Link to post
Share on other sites
This isn’t the place for those who think that Leica, Leica products and Leica customers are inadequate, deceitful or stupid.

 

 
No more political, ideological or religious discussion.

 

 

For person who made choice to get NiB M-E in 2016 after owning bunch of modern, high ISO cameras and for person who is interested in photography all other the world those rules are like second "Welcome" to me! 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

But it's not our task to waste our time with discussions we know in advance they are going to escalate.

 

 

 

Andreas

And therein lies the problem here. The legal term for this is "prior restraint." You assume something is going to result from words not yet uttered, so you prevent them from being said. It is the worst kind of censorship. I'm really sorry you don't see this, or don't care.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

And therein lies the problem here. The legal term for this is "prior restraint." You assume something is going to result from words not yet uttered, so you prevent them from being said. It is the worst kind of censorship. I'm really sorry you don't see this, or don't care.

 

I recently met a senior research scientist based in the Neuroscience and Psychiatry Unit of the University of Manchester. He suggested it was possible to conduct brain scans and predict who is likely to commit crime before they actually commit it. I could ask if he could bring an MRI scanner to the next Leica Meet and we could perform some prior restraint on members. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

And therein lies the problem here. The legal term for this is "prior restraint." You assume something is going to result from words not yet uttered, so you prevent them from being said. It is the worst kind of censorship. I'm really sorry you don't see this, or don't care.

 

Prior restraint  is an American concept coupled with nuances which you ignore. This forum is under the umbrella of German Law.

 

To the point: the administrator of our group is experienced to have observed threads devolve into subjects that attack individuals rather than ideas.

.

Edited by pico
Link to post
Share on other sites

We stray every now and then, and Andreas is a model of restraint.

 

I agree that it is interesting and entertaining to widen discussions with people we like and respect (online), but it is a Leica forum and the moderation is hardly heavy handed.  Sometimes, even in Leica discussions, we all have to remind ourselves to let it go!

 

More's the time when people here have said things I really disagree with, or they've annoyed me - to what end?  Life is diverse, and that's something we have to live with.  A surprising number of people voted for Trump and others voted for Brexit - I know!  Who'd have thought!  Nothing we say here will change that.

 

One thing I've learned over the years is telling a person that they're a tosser doesn't change a thing - they're still a tosser, but worse, they're now an angry tosser.  Andreas does a good job; this is the best resource for Leica discussion; he gives us a lot of rope, and it makes for a nice place.  Save your principles for a time where there really is a point.

 

Cheers

John

Edited by IkarusJohn
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know Andreas (Hi Andreas !), and I don't know if he is a model of restraint.

 

What I do know is that we, the users of his forum, perhaps should use a little more restraint and show a little respect for other points of view even if we believe them to be tossers or even clowns.

 

We have to remember that, though we may ardently believe our point of view is the best one, that is also the belief of the "tosser" opposite, and for her/him, we are just as much a tosser.

 

That being said, but this is after the fact, it does seem that the thread Brent is referring to was hijacked early on and petty, provocative comments were posted. Remove those childish posts by all means but it's a pity indeed that such behaviour should prevent discussion on important subjects that affect us all, even if they can sometimes become heated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never known a forum where political threads do not descend into hatred and personal attacks, I welcome a place where that is prevented.

I've been a member and active participant of this forum since 2002. By far, the most intense, disrespectful, vitriolic and hate filled rhetoric has grown out of disagreements about Leica cameras and lenses. Not politics, not religion. Should any negative comments about Leica equipment be prohibited?

Edited by fotografr
Link to post
Share on other sites

As one of the persons who has to manage fights I can assure you that your perception does not coincide with reality, but I take it as a high compliment to the moderating team that you  didn't notice. Plus, it proves the effectiveness of the no-politics rule, which has been in place for quite a while. 

 

There are rules against Leica-bashing too, since you ask:

 

 

What the forum is not for

This isn’t the place for those who think that Leica, Leica products and Leica customers are inadequate, deceitful or stupid.

Some members, apparently, use the forum exclusively to express the same criticisms again and again, spoiling for others the enjoyment of their hobby.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to be clear that I think Andreas has done a fantastic job with this forum and I've enjoyed the vast majority of time I've spent on it. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. That doesn't mean, however, that when I don't agree with him about a stated policy I have to stifle it and keep my opinion to myself. Do we also want to ban discussions about what should and should not be discussed?

 

I have rarely made waves on this forum, but being told I cannot talk about certain subjects because I probably don't have the self-control to stay civil or because someone else might be upset with my point of view is not something I take lightly. For me, it's a point worth debating--which is what I have done, albeit unsuccessfully.

Edited by fotografr
Link to post
Share on other sites

As one of the persons who has to manage fights I can assure you that your perception does not coincide with reality, but I take it as a high compliment to the moderating team that you  didn't notice. Plus, it proves the effectiveness of the no-politics rule, which has been in place for quite a while. 

 

There are rules against Leica-bashing too, since you ask:

 

Ah, thanks for the reminder. As Donald Trump would say, Leica are great. The best. And they're going to get even better. And we're all going to love them so much. And the Mexicans will pay for all our new cameras.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, thanks for the reminder. As Donald Trump would say, Leica are great. The best. And they're going to get even better. And we're all going to love them so much. And the Mexicans will pay for all our new cameras.

 Tsk,tsk,tsk... Now don't you start provoking...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to be clear that I think Andreas has done a fantastic job with this forum and I've enjoyed the vast majority of time I've spent on it. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. That doesn't mean, however, that when I don't agree with him about a stated policy I have to stifle it and keep my opinion to myself. Do we also want to ban discussions about what should and should not be discussed?

 

I have rarely made waves on this forum, but being told I cannot talk about certain subjects because I probably don't have the self-control to stay civil or because someone else might be upset with my point of view is not something I take lightly. For me, it's a point worth debating--which is what I have done, albeit unsuccessfully.

Nobody said you wouldn't stay civil. in fact I would be rather surprised if you didn't. But we cannot have one rule for the more excitable members and another for the more restrained ones.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nobody said you wouldn't stay civil. in fact I would be rather surprised if you didn't. But we cannot have one rule for the more excitable members and another for the more restrained ones.

 

Why not?  If it makes the forum a nice place to be, no one will complain, apart from the more excitable ones and their presence on the forum is short lived anyway ...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nobody said you wouldn't stay civil. in fact I would be rather surprised if you didn't. But we cannot have one rule for the more excitable members and another for the more restrained ones.

 

I have to be honest, I have seen some occasions where it seems that "some are more equal than others".

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Andreas. I have to agree that restraint is called for with political discussion, but also that the realities of living in, and photographing, a diverse world cannot be ignored entirely, either.  Especially as Leica has traditionally been associated with photojournalism. The moderators do a good job.

 

I am curious and impressed that it is possible to make a living out of running a forum (plus a few others, I believe). That must certainly be a full-time undertaking! I assume advertising revenue outweighs subscriptions. An interesting business model. All my very best. I have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy the Leica Users' Forum.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...