algrove Posted May 27, 2015 Share #121 Posted May 27, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) This was why I just said sell the MM1 and buy the MM2. Since CMOSIS makes these sensors at Leicas request and the cycle is still going so we have a good chance our M platform cameras will last another 5+ years which is more than the majority who buy DSLR or Sony expect from their cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Hi algrove, Take a look here New Leica M coming this year?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted May 27, 2015 Share #122 Posted May 27, 2015 I'm always mildly amused when people talk about "the reality" of electronics or they say "welcome to the digital world". Leica, and buyers of digital M cameras could not be further from either. My Mac computers (I have 3) cost me less than my M Edition 60, and I am totally confident that all three will be repaired, maintained, and yes upgraded, long after Leica has apologised for the fact that my beautiful camera has become a paperweight - not because I have upgraded to the next best thing (that still just takes pictures), but because Leica has, apologetically, said it can no longer repair it. I paid a lot of money for that camera, and I would pay a lot of money to fix it, but that won't be possible. More fool me. But a business model based on charging (at least) twice the price for a beautiful camera, made from the best materials, which is unsupported after, how long? I doubt 10 years will be achievable based on Leica's performance to date, is not sustainable. Leica made a huge splash with the M9 - apart from the IR issue on the M8, cracked sensors, corrosion, failure to sort firmware (lock ups, anyone?), LCD failures and faulty lugs were yet to come. Had I been told that the price of ownership was 10 year obsolescence when I bought my M9 in 2010, I'd have passed. I love my M cameras, and I like fixing things until they are completely worn out. I've done that in the "digital age" with considerable satisfaction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted May 27, 2015 Share #123 Posted May 27, 2015 John Perhaps this is why so many Leica folks are now buying Sony A7 whatevers since the entry fee can be $1500 in the US for the A7II plus say $100 for an M adapter andf off you go beimg able to use many, not all M mount lenses. At those price levels one temnds to expect less and time will tell if they get less too. Digilloyd mentions Sony does not even bother to repair A7 cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 27, 2015 Share #124 Posted May 27, 2015 Some 13 years ago, we were asked to insure a shipment of the Canon Kit 18-55 lenses for the then new Rebel from Canon's Thailand factory to California (the bodies were made in China). We were a bit taken aback to realise that the replacement cost FOB per lens unit was $9. Consumer photographic equipment costs very little to produce once you take development and marketing costs out. I would not be surprised if Sony's A7 costs them less than $250 per unit factory inventory replacement cost. This would be similar to an iPhone 6S which is estimated to cost around $240 but retails for nearer to $800. The hand built Leica M's are a very different story. That is why we customers should have a reasonable expectation of long term repairability, or the whole M concept does not really make sense. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 27, 2015 Share #125 Posted May 27, 2015 John Perhaps this is why so many Leica folks are now buying Sony A7 whatevers since the entry fee can be $1500 in the US for the A7II plus say $100 for an M adapter andf off you go beimg able to use many, not all M mount lenses. At those price levels one temnds to expect less and time will tell if they get less too. Digilloyd mentions Sony does not even bother to repair A7 cameras. Could well be, Lou. Thank you, Wilson - couldn't agree more. Incidentally, anyone have any idea how much those weakest links in the digital M camera cost? A replacement CCD sensor for my Monochrom? Less than $10 would be my guess. The camera cost me $10,000. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 27, 2015 Share #126 Posted May 27, 2015 Incidentally, anyone have any idea how much those weakest links in the digital M camera cost? A replacement CCD sensor for my Monochrom? Less than $10 would be my guess. The camera cost me $10,000. Rather more than $10, John. Many hundreds of dollars, even wholesale, is my understanding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 28, 2015 Share #127 Posted May 28, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Rather more than $10, John. Many hundreds of dollars, even wholesale, is my understanding. But many hundreds of dollars less than the cost of the camera; and the marginal cost of an additional batch of sensors after the development cost is well and truly covered? Not hundreds of dollars would be my expectation - the biggest costs are sunk at that stage ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 28, 2015 Share #128 Posted May 28, 2015 But many hundreds of dollars less than the cost of the camera; and the marginal cost of an additional batch of sensors after the development cost is well and truly covered? Not hundreds of dollars would be my expectation - the biggest costs are sunk at that stage ... If you or I want to buy a single KAF-18500 sensor (like the one in the M9), the cost appears to be over $2000 via suppliers like Digikey. Obviously Leica don't pay anything like this much but clearly they don't pay $10 either. The Monochrom sensor is presumably more costly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 28, 2015 Share #129 Posted May 28, 2015 I'm sure that's right, Ian. But no one is buying a single sensor. Let it me put this another way. There's no development cost for these sensors. The quantities Leica would need to buy to support their CCD sensors for the foreseeable future would not cost thousands per sensor. I doubt it's even hundreds, but we'll never know. If we can perhaps return to the point - relative cost, of camera body, viewfinder, other bits, and the sensor. Sensor and electronics - the cheapest. Pathetically cheap. That's what the digital era is all about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 28, 2015 Share #130 Posted May 28, 2015 Some 13 years ago, we were asked to insure a shipment of the Canon Kit 18-55 lenses for the then new Rebel from Canon's Thailand factory to California (the bodies were made in China). We were a bit taken aback to realise that the replacement cost FOB per lens unit was $9. Consumer photographic equipment costs very little to produce once you take development and marketing costs out. I would not be surprised if Sony's A7 costs them less than $250 per unit factory inventory replacement cost. This would be similar to an iPhone 6S which is estimated to cost around $240 but retails for nearer to $800. The hand built Leica M's are a very different story. That is why we customers should have a reasonable expectation of long term repairability, or the whole M concept does not really make sense. Wilson The replacement value quoted by Leica in shipment documents is 800 Euro, I believe. Whether that is the full production cost including R&D and overhead, I doubt. We must not forget that Leica has to amortize the R&D and overhead on series of a few (tens of) thousands of cameras, against at least hundreds of thousands for the likes of Sony, Nikon, Canon, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 28, 2015 Share #131 Posted May 28, 2015 The replacement value quoted by Leica in shipment documents is 800 Euro, I believe. Whether that is the full production cost including R&D and overhead, I doubt. We must not forget that Leica has to amortize the R&D and overhead on series of a few (tens of) thousands of cameras, against at least hundreds of thousands for the likes of Sony, Nikon, Canon, etc. Jaap, I am very surprised it is as low as that, given the amount of hand machining, finishing and assembly that goes on. Maybe that is just the material cost. German skilled labour costs including social costs, pensions, holidays and taxes must be over €50/hour. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winedemonium Posted May 30, 2015 Share #132 Posted May 30, 2015 Leica M cameras are so well built, beautiful to hold and use. It does seem a shame and a waste that they won't be usable for decades in the same way that it has been possible to with M3s, etc. The idea of a modular internal replacement unit for digital Ms is very appealing from this viewpoint. But I have accepted at the time of purchase that this simply won't happen. The modular unit would have to sell for less than an entirely new camera, yet the R&D for that unit would not be far off that for a new camera. So, there is no business case for it that I can see. At some point though there may be a way to retro fit something inside these cameras after they have died, I could imagine. A semi-professional or third party 'hack' even. Think, for example, or an original 1970s arcade floor-standing coin-operated video game. I'm sure it must be possible to rip out the electronics and put something new inside today, leaving the original unit original as 'furniture' only. I could imagine then, IkarusJohn, that in 20 years time someone might have a hack to make the M60 work once more. (Total speculation... 'sky-gazing', based on nothing). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted May 30, 2015 Share #133 Posted May 30, 2015 Leica M cameras are so well built, beautiful to hold and use. It does seem a shame and a waste that they won't be usable for decades in the same way that it has been possible to with M3s, etc. The M8 is approaching the end of it's first decade with the majority of them in perfect working order, and aside from the LCD, Leica still supports them. Earlier today I shot a first-birthday party with a Canon 5D1, now a year into it's second decade and still working perfectly and producing the same stunning image quality it did when new. AFAIK Canon no longer repairs them, but there are independent shops who do (the economic sense of it is another story). That's really the issue with Leica's, the indies don't know how to repair the electronics, just the mechanicals which are similar to film bodies, and even then not all of them will even touch a digital M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornnb Posted May 30, 2015 Share #134 Posted May 30, 2015 Leica M cameras are so well built, beautiful to hold and use. It does seem a shame and a waste that they won't be usable for decades in the same way that it has been possible to with M3s, etc. Why won't they be? High end digital cameras are more future proof than you think. First generation digital bodies are already a decade old. For example the Canon 5D Classic. Yet the camera still produces fine photos that hold up with todays image quality expectations with a good 12.8 Megapixel sensor. And indeed this camera is a modern classic, it is the camera that allowed digital to truly take over from film. There's a thread on a Canon forum that is still regularly updated by users of this camera. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1159990&page=574 I can see no reason why cameras like the M240 won't still be in use in 2022 or 2032, the great image quality they produce won't suddenly disappear in a decade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted May 31, 2015 Share #135 Posted May 31, 2015 At 7000 shots my M240 has almost paid its worth in film equivalent. After I'm done with it i can toss it in the garbage bin without losing any money. However chances are I can still sell it for over half of what I paid for it when I decide to upgrade for a new model. If I decide to keep it it would be many more years of free unlimited film supply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winedemonium Posted May 31, 2015 Share #136 Posted May 31, 2015 Let's see. I hope so. I'd love for my digital Ms to be usable in 20 years time. The issue is really support for repairs, as well as software updates that allow us to use the camera with whatever PP software we are using by then. What I accept in the meantime, is something approximating edwardkaraa's equation: I will ensure the highest amount of use. The economic argument is fair, but I guess I take a (only slightly) different view - I want to look at the cameras when they are finally beyond repair/compatibility, and think to myself - I really made full use of these, I justified owning them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 31, 2015 Share #137 Posted May 31, 2015 At 7000 shots my M240 has almost paid its worth in film equivalent. After I'm done with it i can toss it in the garbage bin without losing any money. However chances are I can still sell it for over half of what I paid for it when I decide to upgrade for a new model. If I decide to keep it it would be many more years of free unlimited film supply Edward, You are absolutely correct. I am fairly sure with my M9 (where I can track the shutter actuations currently at 15,756) and guess with my M240 (where I can't), that I have taken more images with them in just a few years than I have with my M4 since I got it new in 1967. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted June 1, 2015 Share #138 Posted June 1, 2015 Too little too late? http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-to-announce-a-new-full-frame-fixed-lens-camera-on-june-10?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter This camera may be the test unit for the next generation electronics to be implemented in the next M and -maybe- EVF-based M cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 1, 2015 Share #139 Posted June 1, 2015 Anything new since Lavida rumors? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted June 1, 2015 Share #140 Posted June 1, 2015 Well, let's see if 10 June is accurate. If it's coming then everyone is very tight lipped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.