gabek Posted July 31, 2006 Share #1 Posted July 31, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Greetings all – I am entertained and informed reading the forum and thus I remain on the sideline, an avid lurker. However, I am in need of some advice. I am at 19 months of Digilux-2 ownership and am generally happy with it as a replacement for my beloved M6. I wanted to go digital for reasons of convenience. I strive for very sharp images whenever possible but I have a slight tremor (a plague of aging) that affects both hands, although my right hand is a bit steadier than my left. This all but precludes slow speed handheld shots (30 to 60/second), so available light indoor shooting is very limited, as are some low-light exterior subjects. By way of compensating, I set my shutter speed at a minimum of 125/second, and if a moving subject, 250/second. Of course, this influences the automatic setting of f-stop, resulting in my inability to manage depth of field. I am sometimes very pleased with the resulting images, but feel limited. Not because of personal experience, but because of the trade reviews and comments I have read here, I have avoided using anything other than ISO 100 to preclude noise. I shoot in the denser JPG mode, seldom using RAW. With my M6 I often shot at ISO 400 with either Ilford or TriX. I own a nice assortment of stabilizing devices, comprising a Leitz tabletop tripod and ball head, Leica mini tripod, Digilux-2 “cable” release, Gitzo monopod and an old favorite, 1960 vintage Tiltall tripod, and use them as necessary, but few shots lend themselves to slow and careful shooting. I know I can lighten images in PS but really want to start with a properly exposed, sharp image if I can. I may soon need a bearer to carry my gear! I need suggestions for ways to compensate for this infernal hand shake, such as alternative settings (ISO), shutter speeds, etc. Sorry for not having tested ISO 200/400 first. Thanks all. Gabe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2006 Posted July 31, 2006 Hi gabek, Take a look here Advice for shaky hands please. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
smokysun Posted July 31, 2006 Share #2 Posted July 31, 2006 hi gabe, i don't know the situations and subjects you're shooting, and you probably have the prevailing dislike of flash. however, i'm discovering many wonderful photographers have used flash, including in subtle and beautiful ways, as well as the stark Weegee type. i've been experimenting with the d-lux 2 and a small metz slave flash. and with the d2 have used a cheap sunpack 144 on camera flash with good results. you really can vary the effects tremendously to get what you want. if you can overcome shyness (and it may mean being a more sociable photographer - hard to change our character, but if you love photography more!) then i'd say try out using flashes. it's a sure-cure for camera-shake and the source of many new things. best of luck, wayne ps. and you really can make it look like you never used a flash at all. but two portrait galleries with not-so-subtle flash: daedalus written & dir. david davalos Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com d2 the night thoreau spent in jail Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleeson Posted July 31, 2006 Share #3 Posted July 31, 2006 I, too have a bit of an intention tremor, not at all rare as one passes the half-century mark. I find that a heavier camera helps the most, thus I prefer slide film/scanning mode. I wonder if you could rig up some extra weight that could be somehow threaded into the tripod socket. I would think a machine shop could mill a block of brass, kind of like adding a motor drive... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telyt Posted July 31, 2006 Share #4 Posted July 31, 2006 You might try using the table-top tripod as a chest pod. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted July 31, 2006 Share #5 Posted July 31, 2006 Gabe, Something not mentioned yet is stabilization as in the Leica 14-50mm lens on the Panasonic L-1. Away from Leica, I have a KM5D which will do higher ISOs and has body anti-shake (AS). The lastest in that line is the Sony A100. Those bodies coupled with good G class Minolta or the promised Zeiss lenses could be a solution. The KM5D has a neat personal seismograph in the finder, to show you how much you are shaking and how hard its AS is working. You might at least see if you could borrow or try them out to see if stabilizaton helps. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugby Posted July 31, 2006 Share #6 Posted July 31, 2006 How about the famous String Tripod...?.. uses reverse forces, but could be workable for you. And seems very quick to setup. Click on this link for string tripod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_peter_m Posted July 31, 2006 Share #7 Posted July 31, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Gabe, Using a bean bag might help, that is if there is a spot where to support the camera and bean bag. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gepetto Posted July 31, 2006 Share #8 Posted July 31, 2006 Gabe this is going the other way but how about a Twin Reflex camera. Shot RAW files to experiment using higher ISO with the D2. All in mind to convert to B&W. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabek Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share #9 Posted July 31, 2006 This is great! Some excellent suggestions and a few may work for me. Responding to various suggestions: I really don't want to change cameras. I have become accustomed to the Digilux-2's feel and ergonomics and still love the red dot. The M8 may not serve me any better and I am not inclined to make such a large investment in body and lenses. I have tried a bean bag (more accurately some light kitty litter in a bag) against a tree, fence, car, etc. with good results, but it was bulky - not easy to keep handy and I can't always count on something to rest against. I should keep one in the car. As sugggested, I really don't care to use flash, except where I must and know I can get rid of flare or red eye in PS, but flash does something to the color balance that I don't care for (maybe I look for or imagine it). Based on a thread in the old Leica forum, I bought a Nikon hot shoe extension cord and have successfully used my Leica flash unit off-camera with some success (no nasty glare, etc.), but it's not for spontaneous work, only setup shots. I have to say the bounce feature of the built-in flash has come in handy more than a few times for filling in. I have successfully used the table top tripod as a chestpod, as discussed elsewhere in the forum a couple of weeks ago. It is definitely one option for general use. I also tried using the large Leica ball head by itself as a handle, but without stability beyond what my hands provide, it wasn't much help. I will consider a weight, but hope to accomplish my aim without adding weight. My bag is heavy enough, even with a postman's shoulder pad! I have used the camera strap to create 3-point tension that helps stabilize things, like a rifle sling, but pushing against it can worsen the shake. One idea I haven't tried, and which appeals to me, is the use of a string to create a triangulated stabilizing sling. I'll give it a try. In theory, at least, it looks like it might help a bit, which is all I need right now. Great! Not surprisingly, nobody has yet suggested trying higher ISO and faster shutter speeds, but I might as well try and see what I get. If most of the image noise is limited to the periphery (as I think I have read), maybe I can pull back a bit and leave room for more cropping to get rid of the smeary pixels. I am thankful for a forum such as this, where people are generously helped by others. Thanks to everyone for their considered responses. I'm still open for more ideas and will report back with my experiences trying those suggestions that seem workable for me. Again, thanks, Gabe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richam Posted July 31, 2006 Share #10 Posted July 31, 2006 Gabe, I've had some success using the 2 or 10 second self timer on the Digilux-2. Just set it off, frame, and hold as steady as possible. Not a cure-all, but helps eliminate the shake generated by pushing the shutter release. I agree with the others who mention a bean bag or mini-tripod. I usually leave the little Leica mini-pod attached and often find a spot to use it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest menze_as Posted July 31, 2006 Share #11 Posted July 31, 2006 Hello Gabe, you probably will know about it, then sorry for mentioning it ... When taking a shot we often forget to breathe regularly and deeply because we concentrate too much on motive and technique. Therefore while adjusting the camera just breathe deeply, then inhale before releasing, and exhale while pressing the release. This makes your hands stable as long as you do it. Go for good shots, regards, Astrid from Vienna Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 31, 2006 Share #12 Posted July 31, 2006 Don't be afraid of the higher ISO speeds on the D2. Better in a lot of cases to have a bit more grain than to have blurred images. I've never had good luck with flash in general, but getting used to using the bounce flash on the D2 can do a lot to help in low light without the flat lighting that on-camera flash often implies. Use of RAW may seem a bit 'fiddly' to start out, but it does give you a bit more control. One early reviewer of the D2 recommended avoiding what he felt was the camera's overaggressive noise-smoothing at ISO 400 by setting the camera to ISO 100, setting exposure compensation to -2 stops, and then opening up the image in his RAW processor. But my first recommendation would be to work with the higher ISOs where appropriate. (I've also got a tremor and am still trying to find my way to live with it, so I'm learning something from this thread as well!) --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hm1912 Posted July 31, 2006 Share #13 Posted July 31, 2006 Someone once told me that one way to reduce a bit of shaking is to exhale and then press the shutter button just at the end of the exhale. Could be a bit of crazy folklore, but it's worth a try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted July 31, 2006 Share #14 Posted July 31, 2006 On another note, you may want to consult your doctor and if you are a candidiate, he can prescribe a simple medication called a beta blocker that will mitigate if not eliminate the tremor. It works very very well. Also, no more caffeine! Albert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobold Posted July 31, 2006 Share #15 Posted July 31, 2006 The string or light rope technique is an old standby of film cameramen doing long shots from a static position, hand-held, specially with one of the new light video cameras that do not fit in a shoulder mount. It works. I have never used the string under two feet triangulation approach---but that may even be better. Sure worth a try and cheaper than a monopod, which also works. I have hand-held that same camera you use down to 1/8" and got sharp images---but also I use all the technique brought from years of film camera use and Olympic pistol shooting. The breathing thing is definitely not a myth; that how all shooters and archers release their shots (but more usually by stopping the breath at the *half-out* point, rather than all the way out). Finally, brace your elbows against your chest when handholding (another triangulation)---or if there is ANY stable vertical or horizontal surface, put one elbow on that, and use the breathe in, breathe out and hold, then s-q-u-e-e-z-e that shutter (so you do not jerk the camera). A good shooter will tell you that they really do not know the exact instant the shot will be released. It's not just a Zen thing, either! Cheers and hth, kit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted July 31, 2006 Share #16 Posted July 31, 2006 Kit has pretty much nailed it for good advice on this, in my opinion. The only thing I would add is that I've found when shooting very slow shutter speeds, in addition to pressing my elbows tight against my chest, it is very helpful to wrap the camera strap around my right wrist a couple of turns, then use my left hand to grasp the strap on the other side of the camera and pull it tight to my face. If you experiment with this you may find it a very useful technique. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipotto Posted July 31, 2006 Share #17 Posted July 31, 2006 I keep the pod mounted reguarly, and is fairly useful. I, too have a bit of an intention tremor, not at all rare as one passes the half-century mark.I find that a heavier camera helps the most, thus I prefer slide film/scanning mode. I wonder if you could rig up some extra weight that could be somehow threaded into the tripod socket. I would think a machine shop could mill a block of brass, kind of like adding a motor drive... A chunk of brass threaded into the tripod socket sounds like a marvelous idea, I wonder how difficult/costly this would be. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/2437-advice-for-shaky-hands-please/?do=findComment&comment=22533'>More sharing options...
graeme_clarke Posted July 31, 2006 Share #18 Posted July 31, 2006 Gabe - Kit's advice based on pistol shooting is spot-on. When I used to shoot olympic style target pistols competitively (before they were banned in the UK) the advice, translated into shooting a camera, was grip the body reasonably tightly but relax the shutter finger; press the camera to your face, take a couple of breaths, exhale, hold it and squeeeeze the shutter by pressing gently down on it. You should not know when its going to trip. Pistols always wobble about, but its amazing how accurate the shot is if the trigger is released well and not jerked. With a fast shutter speed of 1/125 or shorter there should be no problem. Good shooting. Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabek Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share #19 Posted August 1, 2006 More great responses. Kit, Astrid, Greame and Brent all give good advice and I do use breathing and subtle pressing as a matter of course. I was a military rifle competition and precision shooter years ago, and although I never reached the Olympic level, I did represent the Marine Corps at the Camp Perry matches one year. No question that breath control and a soft and gradual pressure that causes the trigger or shutter to release without the shooter’s knowledge will give the best results, negating the tendency to anticipate, jerk or “lean” on the button. I recall a quote from a Chinese army rifleman’s manual we read when I was in the service in the 1960’s that described trigger squeeze: “Softer than a snowflake falling on a winter’s night.” I said this to myself thousands of times then and even now. As for (Dr.) Albert’s suggestion, I’m afraid that other medical conditions are already being treated by at least one medication commonly used for tremor and I also take an alpha and a beta blocker for different reasons. After a life never needing so much so an aspirin, in my sixties, I am collecting medical prescriptions like some amass stamps! I made a thumbscrew bolt for the tripod socket today and will try the rope method in the coming days. As well, I’m going to boost ISO to 200 and do some controlled shooting for evaluation. The Pod also looks interesting. It and beanbags are reminiscent of bench rest rifle shooting. I’m glad to know others are benefitting from this thread, as I am; exactly what a forum should be. Thanks again for the constructive ideas. Gabe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_clarke Posted August 1, 2006 Share #20 Posted August 1, 2006 Hi Gabe, I concentrate on rifle shooting now and like you I'm in my 60s. Your tales of benchrest, and adding bits and pieces to the camera to help steady it, made me smile! I like the snowflake analagy. Carrying the rifle/camera isn't so much a problem - its all the rest of the kit and caboodle. The things we do in search of accuracy - but better to keep going than give up! Please let us know how you get on with the string. All the best, Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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