thrid Posted March 31, 2015 Share #1 Posted March 31, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Is there any news from Leica when and if they will fix the green shadows at high asa issue or are we just stuck with this problem for the life of the camera? Personally I was baffled to discover this issue a few days in to owning the camera and find it unacceptable in a piece of gear that costs this much money and from a company that claims to deliver image quality at the apex of the industry. I haven't seen a color science issue like this since the early days of digital photography. Jonathan Perkins was kind enough to release his plugin fix for Lightroom and it can be corrected in post, but this really is something Leica needs to address. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Hi thrid, Take a look here Green Shadows firmware fix?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
FlashGordonPhotography Posted March 31, 2015 Share #2 Posted March 31, 2015 jpeg or raw? Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 31, 2015 Share #3 Posted March 31, 2015 but this really is something Leica needs to address. and they will ....... but it won't be in this camera .... you are stuck with what you have. the next generation ..... which they will have been working on since the M was released (or probably before) with a different sensor and firmware will probably address this ...... if Leica consider it an issue that is ..... and there is no guarantee they will. They have never been that interested in the 'high iso' game played by their competitors ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share #4 Posted March 31, 2015 jpeg or raw? Gordon Both. I only shoot raw and it's there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share #5 Posted March 31, 2015 and they will ....... but it won't be in this camera .... you are stuck with what you have. the next generation ..... which they will have been working on since the M was released (or probably before) with a different sensor and firmware will probably address this ...... if Leica consider it an issue that is ..... and there is no guarantee they will. They have never been that interested in the 'high iso' game played by their competitors ..... I don't think that 'better luck next time' is a viable answer. For starters the green starts to creep in once you pass 400 / 640. By the time you get to 1250 / 1600 it's blatantly visible. 640-1600 or even 3200 asa is not considered high iso in 2015. Historically Leica has always considered itself a tool for lowlight photography. Back in the film days the penultimate low light kit was a Leica M with a Summilux / Noctilux lens and Tri-X pushed to 1600 in Diafine or Delta 3200. Superb optics, rangefinder focusing and the lack of mirror slap made the M series the tool of choose for low light work. I put hundreds or thousands of rolls through this combinations and it was the best thing going. I don't expect Leica to compete with a multi billion dollar company like Sony and produce market leading sensors that can shoot clean pictures in moon light (Sony A7s). But the green shadows are simply the result of sloppily written firmware. Jonathan Perkins and others have been able to analyze this problem and correct it in post and they aren't even part of the M design team nor privy to any internal technical information. It's not a noise issue, which I could live with. It's very poorly written color science in the firmware and it boggles my mind that nobody at Leica noticed this during development. I find it difficult to believe that they did see this the moment they loaded a 1600asa image in to Lightroom, unless everyone on the team is colorblind. So, here I am now with a $7500 camera that shoots green shadows in anything but daylight. I use the camera at work and require it to deliver a certain level of color accuracy, which it is not capable of once I dial it up past 400 asa. This is very frustrating, because I have been shooting Leicas for 20 years and I very much want the 240 to be a viable tool. But I'm getting a little tired of having to explain to clients that I first need to correct the footage for 'green shadows' before I can send the files over. More often than not what is happening is that I leave the 240 at home and grab the D600 with a bag of Zeiss ZF primes, simply because I am usually on a tight deadline and don't have the time to fix something that is not an issue in even a cheap P&S. The 240 is a lovely camera, but maybe Leica should spend a little less time devoting their resources to things like the Lenny K fake corespondents camera and make sure that their star product functions better than a $600 point and shoot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted March 31, 2015 Share #6 Posted March 31, 2015 Capture One 8.2 has a perfect new color balance tool to tackle this issue. You can correct highlights, shadows and midtones separately for the three basic colors. I tried and was able to correct blue shadows and make them look more agreeable. Maarten Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted March 31, 2015 Share #7 Posted March 31, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe it is because I shoot only Raw and use a profile for ACR but I don't see this issue. I am not saying it should not be corrected by Leica at some point (simply because it should not be that way for either RAW or JPG) just that I don't see it. I am attaching a file shot at iso 1600 -- not for its artistic merit but because it was fairly easy to get rid of any green in ACR and CC. (And I am not saying this is perfect WB either! - just no green) So if your question is solely related to out of the camera files, one answer is in the workflow. Again, I am not saying Leica shouldn't correct any greens in the shadows but for your work there are ways to deal with it. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/243018-green-shadows-firmware-fix/?do=findComment&comment=2790637'>More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted March 31, 2015 Share #8 Posted March 31, 2015 @thrid - I do not have a green cast in my shadows, even up to and including ISO 3200 (as high as I go to avoid excessive noise). My initial reaction was that perhaps the color balance of your monitor is off a bit. I would calibrate the monitor, then reevaluate the shadows. This may fix the green cast you are seeing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share #9 Posted March 31, 2015 Maybe it is because I shoot only Raw and use a profile for ACR but I don't see this issue. I am not saying it should not be corrected by Leica at some point (simply because it should not be that way for either RAW or JPG) just that I don't see it. I am attaching a file shot at iso 1600 -- not for its artistic merit but because it was fairly easy to get rid of any green in ACR and CC. (And I am not saying this is perfect WB either! - just no green) So if your question is solely related to out of the camera files, one answer is in the workflow. Again, I am not saying Leica shouldn't correct any greens in the shadows but for your work there are ways to deal with it. Thanks Alan. Did you make your own profile? thx PS: Ironically in your shot the M240 appears to be picking up some magenta contamination in the black synthetic clothing due to IR sensitivity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share #10 Posted March 31, 2015 @thrid - I do not have a green cast in my shadows, even up to and including ISO 3200 (as high as I go to avoid excessive noise). My initial reaction was that perhaps the color balance of your monitor is off a bit. I would calibrate the monitor, then reevaluate the shadows. This may fix the green cast you are seeing. Hey Carlos. My monitors are all calibrated and the problem only shows up with the 240 files. The problem particularly rears it's head of you try to push a file or expose for the highlights and then try to dig out the shadows at a higher asa setting. Have a look at this: Fixing the Leica M240 green shadows thx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted March 31, 2015 Share #11 Posted March 31, 2015 Thanks Alan. Did you make your own profile? thx PS: Ironically in your shot the M240 appears to be picking up some magenta contamination in the black synthetic clothing due to IR sensitivity. Yes, I did a dual illuminant profile with XRite Colorchecker. This was in a bar crowded with people who had fled there from an outdoor pre-wedding party to escape a thunderstorm. Lighting as you can see was mixed. Lots of incandescent, some flourescent, and generally not very good. also a very diverse group with lots of different skin tones. I was using a 50mm Summilux and having trouble nailing focus at f/1.4, so I had to go up to f/2 and crank up the ISO. The original WB is off but not green in the shadows. And yes there could be IR contamination, but I really don't pay much attention to that in a scene like this. I think the M240 performed about as well as one could expect a digital camera to perform in those circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted April 1, 2015 Yes, I did a dual illuminant profile with XRite Colorchecker. This was in a bar crowded with people who had fled there from an outdoor pre-wedding party to escape a thunderstorm. Lighting as you can see was mixed. Lots of incandescent, some flourescent, and generally not very good. also a very diverse group with lots of different skin tones. I was using a 50mm Summilux and having trouble nailing focus at f/1.4, so I had to go up to f/2 and crank up the ISO. The original WB is off but not green in the shadows. And yes there could be IR contamination, but I really don't pay much attention to that in a scene like this. I think the M240 performed about as well as one could expect a digital camera to perform in those circumstances. Thanks. I only noticed the magenta in the blacks, because it is the opposite issue of the green. No criticism intended. It's something nearly all digital cameras have to deal with. thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 1, 2015 Share #13 Posted April 1, 2015 Is there any news from Leica when and if they will fix the green shadows at high asa issue or are we just stuck with this problem for the life of the camera? Personally I was baffled to discover this issue a few days in to owning the camera and find it unacceptable in a piece of gear that costs this much money and from a company that claims to deliver image quality at the apex of the industry. I haven't seen a color science issue like this since the early days of digital photography. Jonathan Perkins was kind enough to release his plugin fix for Lightroom and it can be corrected in post, but this really is something Leica needs to address. I guess I have to say that I have not practically ever noticed this effect although, I have been able to reproduce it back in day when this was reported here. I mean to say that I acknowledge that shadows can have a green color hue at high ISO when pushed in PP but, I just never seem to shoot high ISO then try and recover (increase exposure) in PP. I do enjoy the M's ability to shoot high ISO and I use it mostly, and often, in good lighting to advance shutter speed to the advantage of less motion blur and I don't really see the effect under this type of lighting. Nighttime artificial lighting if, it is poor, doesn't usually lend itself to good photography so, for me, I avoid it. I am also a fan of fill-flash to augment low light especially crappy tungsten lighting where I add a CTO tungsten filter (CTO 3200K) over my 58 flash for good fill balance effect, like Kristian Dowling as described here: What photographers are NOT considering when using HIGH ISO — Kristian Dowling I just wish I was as good as Kristian, a former contributor here - funny that. I can't imagine a client being savvy enough to push a low light shot of mine and comment on the green shadows. I'd expect if anything they would ask why I didn't use speed lighting. It seems to be the norm. Thanks for the post and I'd be curious to see these photos you can't show clients. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 1, 2015 Share #14 Posted April 1, 2015 Maybe it is because I shoot only Raw and use a profile for ACR but I don't see this issue. I am not saying it should not be corrected by Leica at some point (simply because it should not be that way for either RAW or JPG) just that I don't see it. I am attaching a file shot at iso 1600 -- not for its artistic merit but because it was fairly easy to get rid of any green in ACR and CC. (And I am not saying this is perfect WB either! - just no green) So if your question is solely related to out of the camera files, one answer is in the workflow. Again, I am not saying Leica shouldn't correct any greens in the shadows but for your work there are ways to deal with it. Yes- but as it has an overdose of red, green is sure to be suppressed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share #15 Posted April 1, 2015 I can't imagine a client being savvy enough to push a low light shot of mine and comment on the green shadows. I'd expect if anything they would ask why I didn't use speed lighting. It seems to be the norm. Thanks for the post and I'd be curious to see these photos you can't show clients. Rick I work in post production for film and TV and need to shoot pictures that we use as matte paintings, reference material, texture maps on CGI models etc. So I need to bring back RAW files and having to walk people through eliminating the green is not really an option. Sometimes I need to shoot with a lot of DOF (f8-f16) to keep everything in focus and if the light is dim I need to bump up the asa. The problem seems to rear its head in particular with artificial light. It seems worst under sodium vapor street lights, which is a little odd since they only put out light in a very narrow part of the spectrum and if I remember correctly almost no green. LED seems to bring it out and of course fluorescents which have a natural green spike. My guess is that the problem is exaggerated by the ability of the 240 to properly white balance in tricky lighting conditions. All of that said I can obviously eliminate the green, but this really is something that should be addressed by Leica. The other thing I am seeing is heavy noise banding at 3200 asa, so I tend to stick to nothing higher than 1600. But that's another issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted April 1, 2015 Share #16 Posted April 1, 2015 I shot some pictures in a very dark Rijksmuseum last week. The frame of many paintings showed a green cast. In C1 8.2 I was able to remove the cast in 5 seconds. Please see below the result before and after the correction. Maarten Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/243018-green-shadows-firmware-fix/?do=findComment&comment=2791237'>More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted April 1, 2015 Share #17 Posted April 1, 2015 Yes- but as it has an overdose of red, green is sure to be suppressed. Yes the red is from the incandescents. And it wasn't worthy of more color tweaking. But the shadows are not green and never were. My only real point was that the M240 behaved about as well as could be expected at ISO 1600. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share #18 Posted April 2, 2015 I shot some pictures in a very dark Rijksmuseum last week. The frame of many paintings showed a green cast.In C1 8.2 I was able to remove the cast in 5 seconds. Please see below the result before and after the correction. Maarten I haven't been to that museum in many years... I agree that it can be removed and like everyone else I have been doing the same. But as I mentioned earlier I sometimes need to send RAW files to other people and if they don't know the secret handshake I get befuddled emails asking why the blacks are green or suggestions for a photography class. I just don't think this should be a problem in the first place and it is something Leica should be able to fix if they wanted to. The customer should not have to bandaid a quality control problem on the part of the manufacturer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted April 2, 2015 Share #19 Posted April 2, 2015 I haven't been to that museum in many years... I agree that it can be removed and like everyone else I have been doing the same. But as I mentioned earlier I sometimes need to send RAW files to other people and if they don't know the secret handshake I get befuddled emails asking why the blacks are green or suggestions for a photography class. I just don't think this should be a problem in the first place and it is something Leica should be able to fix if they wanted to. The customer should not have to bandaid a quality control problem on the part of the manufacturer. You're right that a green shift in shadows ought not to have to be corrected, but I doubt Leica is going to do anything about it. Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised some day by a further firmware release. Meanwhile the greens are going to have to be dealt with in the raw processing (or in LR or PS I suppose). You could set up a preset in ACR to deal with high ISO images almost with one click. Right out of camera is bound to confuse those who do not understand that RAW images need to be "developed". If you have been sending clients developed files, then you have been making other adjustments as well I presume. I am sure there are other things that people do not like about Leica's out of the camera DNGs but if they can be fixed in the raw developer (to individual taste), the problem is no longer unsolvable and that is probably why Leica is going to ignore it. I can't imagine anyone's taste would prefer greenish shadows but I think the reality is they are not going to address this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted April 2, 2015 Share #20 Posted April 2, 2015 I haven't been to that museum in many years... I agree that it can be removed and like everyone else I have been doing the same. But as I mentioned earlier I sometimes need to send RAW files to other people and if they don't know the secret handshake I get befuddled emails asking why the blacks are green or suggestions for a photography class. I just don't think this should be a problem in the first place and it is something Leica should be able to fix if they wanted to. The customer should not have to bandaid a quality control problem on the part of the manufacturer. Very soon after converting my photography business from film to digital, I learned that the best practice was to never show RAW files to my clients. Invariably, they wouldn't understand that color, exposure and contrast could be adjusted in post to make an image shine and the best shots would get rejected on that basis. I would then be left in the position of trying to re-sell the client on a better selection, which often amounted to a lot of wasted effort. Just a thought. I do agree with you that Leica should have come up with a firmware fix for this by now. It's a problem we shouldn't have to be dealing with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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