50 mm Summicron IV (11819 ) History of changes?

[Antonio Russell]

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Hi,

 

I am interested in finding out the different changes to the 50 mm Summicron IV (11819) which was produced between 1979 and 1994 (I think).

 

Does anyone know what changes there were to the design, front markings and production location over its lifetime?

 

For example I think it started in Canada and was later made in Germany, but when? Also, some lenses say Leica Mad in Canada, others just say Leitz, and others say Leica... Which is which? Some have concave focus tab, others convex...

 

It was suggested to me here that this may be a better forum to ask:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-lenses/362556-50-mm-summicron-iv-11819-history.html

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[luigi bertolotti]

What I am rather sure about is that the FIRST version of the 11819 is :

- Made in Canada

- With "long" front engraving "Leitz lens made in Canada"

- Engraved on a ring that has two inlets that allow easy dismounting

- With s/n on side (a typical detail of same lenses of that era... also 28s, 35s, 90s and the first 75 had this position)

- Convex focus lever

- Yellow "50" at base

 

This styling exists also with concave focus lever... which is the variant used also for the 1913-1983 anniversary series

 

Then, the plot thickens... .. I think that the following variant was engraved simply "Leitz", with s/n on front ring (which still had the 2 inlets) , concave focus lever and "Made in Canada" at base : from which s/n I dunno... Lager depicts a 3.3xx.xxx which is of this kind... I have a 3.022.644 which, of the first kind... 70th items are in the 3.1xx.xxx afaik)

 

The above version surely exists in both Canadian and Germany origin... I have evidence (pics) of a 3.383.xxx made in Canada and a 3.471.xxx made in Germany.

 

Last items seems to me that added the "E39" filter size on front ring... but I'm out of infos...more experts invited to join...

Edited February 7, 2015 by luigi bertolotti

[sandro]

I own two version of this lens, both anniversary versions. One is the 1913-1983 version, mine produced in 1983, with front text Summicron-M 1:2/50 Leitz lens made in Canada. As Luigi mentioned it has the serial; number on the side of the barrel, it has the convex focus tab and of course the Leica 1913-1983 script as well.The other one is the 50 years of Summicron commemoration version produced in 2002, with front text Leica Summicron-M 1:2/50 E39 serial number.

Both version E39, both seem to have the same 90 degree focus turn.

I never reads about any optical changes in all the years this beautiful lens was produced, as far as I know the optics remained the same since 1979.

Lex

[Antonio Russell]

Thanks. Regarding the 13-83 Anniversary version from 1983. The list of serial numbers (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/50mm_f/2_Summicron-M) indicates about 3,000 of these were produced in 1981, 4,000 in 1982, and only 2,000 copies of the regular version (non-anniversary) in 1983. Is that correct? So it seems the 13-83 version is not a special edition but rather all regular lenses manufactured between 1981-82 bore the anniversary markings...

Edited February 8, 2015 by A Aparicio

[semi-ambivalent]

AA,

 

I put some specs for my 50 V4 over on the original forum. I wasn't paying attention and if any mods want to move it here I wouldn't mind.

 

s-a

[sandro]

Of course the 1913-1983 edition was a special edition, together with the M4-P with special numbers and the same engraving Leica 1913-1983. It is quite possible that in several years more Summicron-M 50mm lenses were produced with the 1913-1983 engraving than regular ones. But don't forget that this lens was available already since 1980 and would remain available for many more years!

Lex

[Antonio Russell]

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Of course the 1913-1983 edition was a special edition, together with the M4-P with special numbers and the same engraving Leica 1913-1983. It is quite possible that in several years more Summicron-M 50mm lenses were produced with the 1913-1983 engraving than regular ones. But don't forget that this lens was available already since 1980 and would remain available for many more years!

Lex

 

It seems all lenses between 1981-82 had the 1913-1983 engraving on them. There were no lenses without and none in 1980 according to this:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/50mm_f/2_Summicron-M

[Antonio Russell]

Bump for anyone who knows when they started making this lens in Germany?

[joeswe]

my Made in Germany is #347xxxxx from 1988

[luigi bertolotti]

my Made in Germany is #347xxxxx from 1988

 

I think that the (probably gradual) switch from Canada to Germany occurred just around those years... thinking that the lens factory in Solms was opened in 1987, and the Ontario factory was sold to Hughes in 1990...

[Antonio Russell]

I think that the (probably gradual) switch from Canada to Germany occurred just around those years... thinking that the lens factory in Solms was opened in 1987, and the Ontario factory was sold to Hughes in 1990...

 

Thanks. The reason I ask is because I have come across a 50 Cron IV with made in Germany on the body but the serial number is from 1985... I suspect therefore that the front ring with the serial number on it has been swapped with one from an older lens if the factory wasn't even opened until 1987!

[luigi bertolotti]

Thanks. The reason I ask is because I have come across a 50 Cron IV with made in Germany on the body but the serial number is from 1985... I suspect therefore that the front ring with the serial number on it has been swapped with one from an older lens if the factory wasn't even opened until 1987!

 

Well, don't take my previous post as the Holy Bible... : of course, before the transfer to Solms there was the previous historical Wetzlar site... it's just a hipotesis from me, based on coincidence of some times, that the Summicron 50 manufacturing was re-established in Germany in the occasion of the move to Solms... Summicrons of course were made in Wetzlar starting from 1952... I have not any other sure hint, and afaik they made there all the Summicrons 50 for R line...

[ChrisN]

Apologies for resurrecting and old thread! 

 

I have just acquired a 50mm Summicron-M, black, "Leitz Lens Made in Canada" on the front ring, yellow "50" on the mount, serial number 2916274 on the side of the lens, 8 aperture blades, thin knurled aperture ring and tiger-paw tab, 195 gm weight. I believe this is an early Version 4 lens.

 

Several sources suggest this serial number was manufactured in 1978, but a couple of sources also suggest that the early Summicron-M type 4 was manufactured from 1979 or 1980. Is there a consensus on what year the Type 4 began manufacture?  Is it certain that the 2916274 serial number lens was made in 1978?  

 

Not critically important question, I know, but I'm curious.

 

Thanks

 

Chris

[luigi bertolotti]

Apologies for resurrecting and old thread! 

 

I have just acquired a 50mm Summicron-M, black, "Leitz Lens Made in Canada" on the front ring, yellow "50" on the mount, serial number 2916274 on the side of the lens, 8 aperture blades, thin knurled aperture ring and tiger-paw tab, 195 gm weight. I believe this is an early Version 4 lens.

 

Several sources suggest this serial number was manufactured in 1978, but a couple of sources also suggest that the early Summicron-M type 4 was manufactured from 1979 or 1980. Is there a consensus on what year the Type 4 began manufacture?  Is it certain that the 2916274 serial number lens was made in 1978?  

 

Not critically important question, I know, but I'm curious.

 

Thanks

 

Chris

About the question I have evidenced here above. the answer is always and definitely NO, and it is like this for almost all the Leitz lenses : Leitz did ALLOCATE batches of numbers to certain items in a certain year, then managed the product flow depending on demand and the other usual factors on which a manufacturing concern establishes its productions plans day by day.

So, in 1978 Leitz decided that the numbers 2915801-2916800 were allocated to Summicrons 50 : this is the only sure fact (hair splitting...  the decision in itself could hav been taken even in 1977...) : WHEN your lens actually left the production line is uncertain : the other known fact is that they allocated 4000 more numbers (2922901 2926900) for the same lens in the same year... this could be interpreted as an evidence that, unless their product planning dep. was under deep beer effect, the items in the previous batch of 1000 were indeed MADE in 1978... but anyway there is not a 100% certainess about.

Of course, the Summicron has been traditionally a "high volumes" lens, so production flow was reasonably constant, and in my opinion is VERY VERY probable that your lens left the factory in 1978... but anyway one, when discussing about s/n vs. year, must never forget the principle of "batch allocation" (and about lenses of the era, the "pingponging" Canada-Germany)

To the EXTREME opposite of the Summicron 50 there is a special lens like the Telyt S 800...  : the 350 numbers' batch was allocated in 1971... the last item belonging to that batch was manufactured in 1994  (and not with the LAST number allocated, given the not so hot sales...  )

Edited November 8, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[willeica]

Luigi is correct, but just like every race horse has a birthday on 1 January every year, then it is perfectly legitimate to ascribe a lens to a year indicated by the commonly issued serial number lists in the Blue Book or by reference to Thiele. For Leica cameras and lenses some people take up strong positions about years and serial numbers when it is obvious that Leica did not follow a strict number sequence, particularly in the very early years from 1925 to 1935. Does it really matter whether a camera was manufactured or issued in 1932 or 1933. For me the answer is 'no', even though I am a serious collector. The easiest way is to go by the published lists and to forget about the rest, unless you have some very specific historical reason to determine the precise date of manufacture or issue.

 

William

[luigi bertolotti]

Luigi is correct, but just like every race horse has a birthday on 1 January every year, then it is perfectly legitimate to ascribe a lens to a year indicated by the commonly issued serial number lists in the Blue Book or by reference to Thiele. For Leica cameras and lenses some people take up strong positions about years and serial numbers when it is obvious that Leica did not follow a strict number sequence, particularly in the very early years from 1925 to 1935. Does it really matter whether a camera was manufactured or issued in 1932 or 1933. For me the answer is 'no', even though I am a serious collector. The easiest way is to go by the published lists and to forget about the rest, unless you have some very specific historical reason to determine the precise date of manufacture or issue.

 

William

Fine comparision  .

[michaelwj]

Manufactured from 1979 or released on 1979? If it is the later then some lenses had to me made before it was released.

The lists are vague, and as mentioned above are pre-allocated prior to manufacture (else two different types of lens might end up with the same number). Good for seeing what serial number applied to what item (although with cameras it can be tricky) and good for adding up total production (although sometimes batches are not completed - it at least sets an upper limit).

And we love a thread resurrection!

[wlaidlaw]

Am I correct in thinking that the optical cell is unchanged between the versions IV and V? I have the 1999 Special Edition LTM Series V Summicron 50. 

 

Wilson

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[luigi bertolotti]

_{Yes, I think it's exactly the same design;  the special LTM version is quoted by Marco Cavina in his "panoramic view" of Summicron :}

 

_{< http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/50mm_Leica_a_telemetro/00_pag.htm>}

 

_{Summicron 50mm f/2 LTM collassabile finitura Cromo con vetri al Torio mat. 920.001 – 922.072 (1951)
Summicron 50mm f/2 LTM collassabile finitura Cromo ricalcolato con vetri LaK9 autarchici – da mat. 993.025 (1952)
Summicron 50mm f/2 LTM collassabile finitura Cromo con vetri LaK9 esterni (1953) SOOIC
Summicron 50mm f/2 a baionetta M collassabile finitura Cromo (1954-57) SOOIC/1116
Summicron 50mm f/2 tipo SOOIC - 1 esemplare placcato oro mat. 1.379.604 per Leica M3 placcata oro mat. 834.000 (1956)
Summicron 50mm f/2 a baionetta M e otturatore Compur detto “Summicron Compur” (1954)
Summicron 50mm f/2 a baionetta M in montatura rigida, schema rivisto da Mandler, scala delle distanze singola e finitura Cromo (1956) SOSIC/11818
Summicron 50mm f/2 tipo SOSIC - 1 esemplare placcato oro per Leica M3 placcata oro mat. 873.000 (1957)
Summicron 50mm f/2 come sopra in finitura nera (1957)
Summicron 50mm f/2 a baionetta M in montatura rigida, schema rivisto da Mandler e finitura Cromo con godronature più grandi e doppia scala distanze (1960)
Summicron 50mm f/2 come sopra in finitura nera; ghiera anodizzata anziché laccata (1961)
Summicron 50mm f/2 a baionetta M in montatura rigida, schema rivisto da Madler e finitura Cromo  per brevi distanze (0,48m) con occhiali SPDOO/11322 e scala riproduzione (1956) SOMNI/11918
Summicron 50mm f/2 come sopra senza scala riproduzione
Summicron 50mm f/2 come sopra in finitura nera
Summicron 50mm f/2 LTM in montatura rigida, schema rivisto da Mandler e montatura Cromo (1960-63) SOSTA
Summicron 50mm f/2 a baionetta M schema a 6 lenti in 5 gruppi, finitura nera e ghiera a godronature alternate (1968-1979) 11817
Summicron 50mm f/2 come sopra con ghiera a rilievi lineari (1970)
Summicron 50mm f/2 a baionetta M con schema 6 lenti in 4 gruppi e finitura nera (1979) 11819
Summicron 50mm f/2 tipo 11819 per giubileo "1913-1983" - 1.375 pezzi (1983)
Summicron 50mm f/2 tipo 11819 "Rooster" con ideogrammi per Leica M6 "Rooster" - 300 pezzi ( 1992)
Summicron 50mm f/2 come sopra con finitura satinata Cromo (1992) 11825
Summicron 50mm f/2 finitura cromo tipo 11825 con incisioni speciali per Leica M6 "Colombo" - 200 pezzi (1992)
Summicron 50mm f/2 finitura cromo tipo 11825 con incisione "LHSA 25th Anniversary" - 151 pezzi (1993)
Summicron 50mm f/2 LTM schema 6 lenti in 4 gruppi finitura satinato cromo paraluce telescopico 1000 pz. circa (2000) 11619
Summicron 50mm f/2 a baionetta M schema 6 lenti 4 gruppi finitura nera paraluce telescopico (1994) 11826
Summicron 50mm f/2 come sopra finitura satinato Cromo (1994)11816
Summicron 50mm f/2 tipo 11826 finitura placcata Oro come kit aggiuntivo alla Leica M6 "Silver Jubilee Sultan of Brunei Gold Edition" - 125 pezzi + 1 pezzo fornito per valutazione con mat. 3.884.300 (1994)
Summicron 50mm f/2 tipo 11826 finitura placcata Oro per Leica M6 "Golden Thailand Jubilee" - 700 pezzi (1996)
Summicron 50mm f/2 tipo 11826 con doppia numerazione per Leica M6 "Dragon" - 300 pezzi (1995)
Summicron 50mm f/2 tipo 11826 con incisioni per giubileo Leica Historica tedesca 1975-95 - 150 pezzi (1995)
Summicron 50mm f/2 in montatura retrò satinata cromo "50 Years Edition"}
 

Edited November 8, 2017 by luigi bertolotti