Leica M 240: It's serious drawbacks for landscape shooters – but can we fix it?

[Kolossus]

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What is the use of a camera that is to big to let you enjoy your trip? Summarit 35 2.4 and Macro Elmar 90 4. 

Fast, versatile and a joy to use. 

 

 

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[Kolossus]

Sorry, still don't get the upload-thing..

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[Kolossus]

Love that little summarit lens...

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[Kolossus]

Its long-exposure-limitations and stupid noise reduction does not prevent you from taking some easy shots.

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[Likaleica]

Wow.  Beautiful scenery.  Where is that?

 

I agree.  I've used everything from 4x5 to Hasselblad to Leica S to iPhone.  It's about the joy.

[Kolossus]

And again I am sorry for that creepy upload quality, I am working on it

[Kolossus]

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It was a whole day walk in austria, up to the "Dachstein".

I have come to aprpechiate Iphone`s panorama modus when it has to be done quick and dirty.

 

 

Sorry for the last three pic`s quality. Bearing in mind that quality is downsized, I was quite pleasured to see what the M is capable to do besides its long exposure limitations, light pollution and noise reduction. I am sure there is still something to push out of the RAW files. In the future, I need to try some more of that kind.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Kolossus

[Herr Barnack]

Hello all

 

A few months back I finally fulfilled my dream and got myself the M 240. The digital Leica M body I always have wanted. So far it's been stunning experience and I love shooting with it. M 240 and SEM 21 are particularly a special combo together. What the M has brought me for the first time I truly enjoy shooting street photography.

 

However, I have always enjoyed landscape shooting the most. I was aware of the drawbacks of M 240 when I purchased it. If you don't know what I am talking about I mean the following problems:

 

- One minute maximum exposure = It's a disgrace to even call it bulb mode

- No way to turn off LENR (Long exposure noise reduction) = practical disadvantage: try shooting fireworks when the guy next to you is going to get twice as many shots as you are

- Long exposure with high ISO is even more limited = astrophotography is impossible

- Inability to move the focus point on live view when zoomed in

 

I am aware there are plenty of discussion about the aforementioned issues on these forums. As we all know anyone who is serious about landscape shooting these issues render the M almost useless. Which is in so many ways so sad. We are talking about a 6000 € camera, we have the best ultra wide lens ever (SEM 21) - and yet it can't be used to it's full potential because of these limitations. This makes me just sad.

 

For me this is frustrating beyond all ways to describe it. To have the digital M body you always wanted, yet you are limited by such limitations. Right now I have three options:

1) Pray and hope Leica would release a firmware update to fix the issues (or perhaps a firmware hack could enable this?

2) Forget all kind of long exposure shooting with the M.

3) Get a second body for landscape shooting. Right now for me the only option would be the Sony A7r. Which I already owned once. Sad news at the time the performance with certain M wides was not acceptable. The good news now is by modifying the camera it appears we can get good performance even with SEM 21 (source: Diglloyd.com).

 

Now I most certainly would not want to choose option number 2). So what I want to know is there a way we can reach Leica directly and get answers about these issues? Has Leica ever explained the reasoning to disable long exposures on the CMOSIS sensor? I simply can't believe an overheating would be a problem. If yes, how come no other camera manufacturer doesn't have the same problem? My guess is they want landscape shooters to invest into S-system. Or perhaps Leica's vision is perfection: hot pixels are not tolared. I say this because even the Leica T has the same technical limitation. And we all know the T has a Sony sensor which is perfectly capable for long exposures without any issues, yes again Leica has not allowed it. What ever the real reason for this is I find it ridiculous. Every DSLR I ever had (since Canon EOS 300D) has had a bulb mode. Hot pixels have never been a problem. And if they are turning LENR on removes the problem.

 

I realize the game is probably lost by now for the M 240 and Leica is already probably working on the next generation M body. But I just want Leica to be at least aware of these drawbacks. And that the next generation Leica M body would not have such disadvantages for those who enjoy landscaping with Leica glass the most. M9 is not an option for me, because I think live view is a mandatory property for a landscape shooter. And I don't think I would be satisfied even with the 240 seconds.

 

Any comments? Thank you for reading this...

 

P.S. I am aware some folks seem to be bit over defensive when it comes to criticizing Leica M bodies here, but I truly believe these issues are serious drawbacks for each and everyone of us. And only together we have a chance to get answers from Leica. I certainly am hoping that a future firmware update is possible to fix some of these issues.

@Tmuussoni,

Every camera system has its limitations.  Perhaps the M240 is not the best choice of camera for astrophotography or other pursuits that require an exposure over 60 seconds. 

 

"I truly believe these issues are serious drawbacks for each and everyone of us."  That is just not the case for me personally, and I would suspect that there are tens of thousands of M240 and/or M-P shooters walking this planet who would agree.

 

"As we all know anyone who is serious about landscape shooting these issues render the M almost useless."  Huh??  "Almost useless?"  JMHO buy you are WAAAAY off in the ditch on that one. 

 

"...try shooting fireworks when the guy next to you is going to get twice as many shots as you are."  I'm not even sure how to respond to that one.  Actually, I do know how to respond.  I would suggest to you that photography is not a competitive sport with "winners" and "losers."  Photography is not a race where cars have been replaced by cameras.  I have found that it is more productive to not concern myself with what the other guy is doing or getting and work on improving my own photography.

 

JMHO/YMMV.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Carlos Danger

[Digitalrules]

I agree with some of the things you've mentioned. I bought a used M240 for a decent price off of eBay. But even though the camera is beautiful and produced nice images, i felt there was no excuse for a camera which cos several thousand dollars more than some of the most advanced cameras out there to be as slow as it is. Slow start up, slow as molasses buffer, very slow response to the shutter release when live view is on, so slow to wake up that it's almost faster to turn it off and then back on and wait for it to "boot up". Disappointing noise at 1600 ISO. During playback I noticed that the screen would dim slightly and then brighten again. I heard the M-P 240 is twice as fast, but I decided that the camera was not worth the price even at a discount. Will just stick to shooting with my M6.

[colonel]

I agree with some of the things you've mentioned. I bought a used M240 for a decent price off of eBay. But even though the camera is beautiful and produced nice images, i felt there was no excuse for a camera which cos several thousand dollars more than some of the most advanced cameras out there to be as slow as it is. Slow start up, slow as molasses buffer, very slow response to the shutter release when live view is on, so slow to wake up that it's almost faster to turn it off and then back on and wait for it to "boot up". Disappointing noise at 1600 ISO. During playback I noticed that the screen would dim slightly and then brighten again. I heard the M-P 240 is twice as fast, but I decided that the camera was not worth the price even at a discount. Will just stick to shooting with my M6.

Funny

I switch mine on and shoot straight away (1-2 seconds ?).

LV is faster then most DSLRs I have used.

Noise at 1600 is not bad at all, were you using LR ? Remember Leica raw does not include noise reduction built in like many other makes.

I don't find it any slower to use then my MP, but perhaps the MP is much slower then the M6 ?

[vmoritz]

I am a soon to be ex- Canon user and M-P owner of a few months duration. I agree that the limitations of this camera are a real problem- particularly given the cost of the item. I do love the form factor and the lenses (WATE, 50 summicron and 135 Elmarit are to die for. The camera jamming was giving me real grief but the recent firmware upgrade fixed it (2 years in coming)

 

My solution- I recently bought a sony a7rii to use for landscape work. It pairs beautifully with the Leica lenses and I can move my focus point to where I want it, not to mention that I have the NR turned off!! I've yet to try it for night work, but given my experience trying to focus the Leica in the dark it can only be an improvement. Let's hope the next Leica body deals with some of these issues or there may be more movement to third party solutions!

[jaapv]

Fireworks? What is the problem with fireworks??? One can get decent shots, any number of them, with just about any camera..

M240, Olympus Zuiko OM 75-150 Not even a tripod...

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[Mornnb]

Fireworks look best with an exposure of about 10 seconds.

The issue with the M is the second noise reduction exposure, it means you can miss the perfect moment when shooting fireworks.

[jaapv]

Yep- and without it you would have unacceptable noise.. I don't think I handheld my shot for ten seconds...

[pico]

This talk of astrophotography is interesting. I had an 8x10" research camera from Lockheed, a wide angle sky-camera that did not rely upon long exposures. It shot wide open and a few seconds were all that was necessary to record stars. All such cameras were designed to shoot wide open. Given how spectacular later Leica lenses perform wide open I must ask what the complainers are looking for, perhaps star trails? With Leica's digital cameras and post processing it is a no-brainier.

[Peter Kilmister]

It's not hard to focus on stars. Even I know that!

[Herr Barnack]

I agree with some of the things you've mentioned. I bought a used M240 for a decent price off of eBay. But even though the camera is beautiful and produced nice images, i felt there was no excuse for a camera which cos several thousand dollars more than some of the most advanced cameras out there to be as slow as it is. Slow start up, slow as molasses buffer, very slow response to the shutter release when live view is on, so slow to wake up that it's almost faster to turn it off and then back on and wait for it to "boot up". Disappointing noise at 1600 ISO. During playback I noticed that the screen would dim slightly and then brighten again. I heard the M-P 240 is twice as fast, but I decided that the camera was not worth the price even at a discount. Will just stick to shooting with my M6.

The 2GB image buffer is a must have IMHO.  This means passing on the M240 and acquiring the M-P. 

 

I do not know the reasons for the issues you cite - I'm not a Leica engineer.  I would have to wonder though if some of these issues are a result of Leica's desire to keep the M240 and M-P as close to the film M dimensions as possible.  Some people moaned when the M240 did not have auto sensor cleaning; there was nowhere to put it without making the camera bigger, which some people would have moaned about, present company included. 

 

At the end of the day, Leica has to choose which is more important:  Keep the M240 and M-P as close in size to the M2 through M7 cameras as is possible, or build a digital wonder M that does everything and is the size of a Bronica RF645.

 

Personally, I think Leica made the right decision in keeping the M240 and M-P almost the size of its film based M ancestors.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Carlos Danger

[250swb]

My solution- I recently bought a sony a7rii to use for landscape work. It pairs beautifully with the Leica lenses and I can move my focus point to where I want it, not to mention that I have the NR turned off!! I've yet to try it for night work, but given my experience trying to focus the Leica in the dark it can only be an improvement. Let's hope the next Leica body deals with some of these issues or there may be more movement to third party solutions!

 

Ideally that is exactly what Leica need, the people who bought the wrong camera to migrate to another brand leaving those that appreciate the form and simple functions of the M line up to enjoy it without the moans and groans and misinformation from disgruntled customers. Good luck with your Sony A7RII, get some use out of it because instead of firmware upgrades Sony just release another camera every 12 months.

 

Steve

[colonel]

I have never had lock ups in any of 4 M240s. Also my M240s are all super fast.

I just feel a need to counter these off the cuff comments every 2 or so pages of the thread

 

In terms of the A7Rii I think along with the M240 it's the best 35mm camera every made, but I get terribly confused when people talk about migrating to it from Leica M. The workflow, design, build and results package are what M is all about. If you are nonchalant about that you should buy any AF Camera that takes your fancy. 6Ds and Canon lenses are available at significant discount in the UK. If this fits the bill why even talk about Leica.

 

I have used most of the FF cameras on the market and none can tempt me away from Leica M. That doesn't mean I don't use them occasionally. I think the RX100iv is the best non-35mm camera and excellent when a pocket camera is required. All because I love panoramas and face detect on the RX100 doesn't mean I want any of that stuff on the M.

 

BTW very interesting talk by a wedding photographer on you tube how the accurate face and eye detect on the A7S and A7ii have transformed his technique. Registering the groom and bridge and key wedding participants for example on the camera.

 

With my M I want aperture, shutter, focus and a light meter in the most beautiful and compact package with the best of the RF lenses. If the M260 is nothing more then more MP, better DR and better ISO that would be quite enough for me. Although I have expressed an interest in a 4G sim to auto upload my raw to a server ready for editing on the next PC I get to

Edited September 2, 2015 by colonel

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jto555]

Although I have expressed an interest in a 4G sim to auto upload my raw to a server ready for editing on the next PC I get to

 

Try an Eyefi card to upload to your phone and then something like dropbox to auto upload from your phone to dropbox which will then sync to your computer.

 

http://www.eyefi.com/products/mobi-pro

 

Its a bit slow with RAW and it can get confused if you are in a location with a lot of strong wifi signals AND it eats your battery. Plus you need a HUGE data limit on your phone package. I really hate 'bill shock'!!!