Advice on getting a level horizon?

[David Wogan]

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As a long-time SLR user, I'm finding that there is just one issue I have to come to grips with in the use of my new M8 and wide-angle lenses.

 

With an SLR of course, framing with a wide-angle lens is easy - particularly lining up vertical lines within the frame and getting the overall geometry right.

 

With the M8 and the Zeiss 21mm Biogon or the Lecia 35mm Summicron, I am finding that my images are consistently suffering from a clockwise rotation of a significant number of degrees. Aware of the issue, I find myself taking longer than I normally would in framing the subject using the framelines for both horizontal and vertical alignment - but I can't find a method that works consistently.

 

Has anyone else has this experience?

Are there any tips or tricks for getting this right?

 

Thanks

David

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[Shootist]

The only problem I have is in the way I hold the camera. I always seem to get a counter clockwise tilt to my images. I have to make myself lower the right side, grip shutter release side, of the camera to get it right. I also pick either the horizontal or vertical frame line to align something in the image, IE the way I want it to look, but never both H-V. I always seem to be shooting upward or downward at the subject and at a angle and when doing that both H & V are never really aligned.

[tashley]

As a long-time SLR user, I'm finding that there is just one issue I have to come to grips with in the use of my new M8 and wide-angle lenses.

 

With an SLR of course, framing with a wide-angle lens is easy - particularly lining up vertical lines within the frame and getting the overall geometry right.

 

With the M8 and the Zeiss 21mm Biogon or the Lecia 35mm Summicron, I am finding that my images are consistently suffering from a clockwise rotation of a significant number of degrees. Aware of the issue, I find myself taking longer than I normally would in framing the subject using the framelines for both horizontal and vertical alignment - but I can't find a method that works consistently.

 

Has anyone else has this experience?

Are there any tips or tricks for getting this right?

 

Thanks

David

 

The WATE finder has a spirit level built into it and this makes horizontals a doddle, useful even with other lenses on but the problem is rarely very pronounced above 21mm IMHO.

 

Tim

[Guest guy_mancuso]

David i think a lot of it is getting used too a RF system. Same boat here 32 years of SLR"s and new to RF but after a couple months with the M8 i have got that down very well and don' think about it much anymore

[cbretteville]

David,

I've been working on the same problem. I'm wearing glasses most of the time and contacts some times, the slanting horizon is not that much of a problem when I shoot with the latter. I discovered yesterday that unless I hold the camera's vf to the center of my glasses the frame lines get distorted and slant one way or the other. This was a really strange effect and I noticed it because I was standing in font of a brick wall looking through the finder at the bricks preparing to take a test shot for my newly acquired CV28 Ultron.

 

- C

[glenerrolrd]

Yes I have had the same problem. Since I use an assessory grip I seem to hold the weight of the camera with my right hand. This seems to cause the left side of the base to drop just a bit from horizontal . So the horizon appears to dip a few degrees on the right. I have been wondering if it might also be that I am not squaring my eye to the viewfinder..that is maybe I am looking thru it at a slight angle. . I have been meaning to to put the M8 on a tripod with a leveling base and verify that my rangefinder is aligned properly.

[johnbuckley]

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David - I have had the same problem, and found the solution is... Lightroom. It is so easy to adjust the horizon levels, that I now longer worry about them. Cheers, JB

[David Wogan]

Glad to hear that this is a known RF issue rather than just me or the lens or the M8. I guess that it is just impossible for the viewfinder to reflect the actual perspective view of any given lens, which means that the framelines are redundant for that purpose.

 

I like the idea of the spirit level, the best place for this might be within the camera body with an indicator shown within the viewfinder?

 

I have ruled out using an external VF and will therefore just keep going through trial and error until I get it right more times than I do now.

[dfarkas]

Two suggestions:

 

1. Use the top or bottom framelines to line up with your horizon, then rasie or lower as needed for composition.

 

2. Use the hot shoe bubble level from Manfrotto. Just $30, small, and extremely useful.

 

Good luck.

 

David

[Guest tummydoc]

The edges of the rangefinder patch are also parallel to the framelines and can be used as a secondary alignment aid.

[mitchell]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't stand wearing glasses while shooting. It puts my eye too far away from the viewfinder, and, as Carl says above, glasses distort. Diopters are the answer.

 

And yes it's a pain to switch back to the glasses. I hang them around my neck.

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

[andit]

Hi David,

 

While I know that this has been suggested before, make use of the frame lines in the regular viewfinder and then recompose. It sounds troublesome, but works real great. Another thing that I have done using the cv15mm lens with accessory finder: I found it just to much trouble to put the accessory finder on and off (then compose in the acc finder and meter in the normal finder), so now I use just the regular rangefinder and then chimp the shot. I've actually gotten quite good at judging what is in the frame and what is not (there is always software to crop what you dont want). Hope this helps a bit.

 

Andreas

[charlesphoto99]

Funny, I seem to have the opposite problem - the pics I take with my D200 seem to be always slanted slightly. M8, M7 no problem. Guess it's what you're used to.

 

M8 I can't seem to shoot handheld at as slow of shutter speeds as the M7. But I'm sure I'll figure the ergonomics of doing that sooner or later (could be the different shutter has more torque).

[lars_bergquist]

This is not a RF problem. It is not even a camera problem. It is a user problem. I used to have it once – with an SLR.

 

The cure is this: When first looking through the viewfinder, you must a) decide where the point opposite you at the same height as your head is; and visualize a level line through that point. That is, don't look at the frames, look at the subject.

 

This way you avoid both converging verticals and tipsy horizons. I have experimented with bubble levels both in the finder and in the accessory shoe and have found them useless. One in the finder is worse than useless; it is distracting and irritating.

 

The old man from the Age of Surveyor's Theodoliths

[David Wogan]

This is not a RF problem. It is not even a camera problem. It is a user problem. I used to have it once – with an SLR.

 

The cure is this: When first looking through the viewfinder, you must a) decide where the point opposite you at the same height as your head is; and visualize a level line through that point. That is, don't look at the frames, look at the subject.

 

This way you avoid both converging verticals and tipsy horizons. I have experimented with bubble levels both in the finder and in the accessory shoe and have found them useless. One in the finder is worse than useless; it is distracting and irritating.

 

The old man from the Age of Surveyor's Theodoliths

 

I like the sound of this...

[Artichoke]

that I jury rigged taking it from an inexpensive shop tool

I then use plastic blue sticky tack to attach it to the M8

works like a charm and much less expenisve than using a spirit level

I find I use my 21 mm Elmarit infrequently with the viewfinder as I like the perspective shooting from the hip (or knee or ankle) gives ...I less frequently attach the level to the bottom of the camera with the blue tack & shoot above my head ...an added advantage of using a spirit level is that it helps with visual feedback on how steadily you are holding the camera

this technique works very well for me, but of course you have to learn the "view" of the lens ...chimping helps, but after a short time you learn pretty well what you will get

[lars_bergquist]

Dear Artichoke,

 

personally, I found spirit levels not accurate enough.

 

The impossible old man from the Age of Theodoliths on Big Wooden Tripods ...

[Philinflash]

...I less frequently attach the level to the bottom of the camera with the blue tack & shoot above my head ...an added advantage of using a spirit level is that it helps with visual feedback on how steadily you are holding the camera

this technique works very well for me, ...

 

Jeez, I think you are kidding yourself on how steady you are holding your camera with your arms extended over your head like that and even more on how reliable the spirit level's feedback is on your steadiness.

 

Don't get me wrong, I always have a $3 bulls-eye spirit level in my kit for tripod-mounted shooting. I just rest it on the nice flat top of the M8 and level-up the camera; no bluetack.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lars_bergquist]

If you have a consistent list to one side, do try hanging your bag from the other shoulder – seriously!

 

The know-all from the Age of Theodoliths on Big Wooden Tripods ;-)

[geoffreyg]

Well, now's the time to really date oneself:

 

Back about 1972, I took a photo workshop with Gjon Mili, an old Time Life photographer (colleage of Edgerton, flash). He shot only with M's, and of course had two or three bodies and some lenses in an old TWA airline bag which of course tombled and jumbled them as he walked. They got nice edge brassing that way.

 

Apart from him teaching us rigorous setup and composition, he also taught how to hold an M for steadiness and control: left hand flat, open to the right, and palm up, supporting the bottom of the camera. Front fingers for focus and aperture, the back fingers and palm for steadiness. The right hand only for cocking and shooting. The trigger finger of the right hand would thus work (push) against the palm of the left hand, thus giving better control. This would stop the "rotation" that normally happens if the shutter finger pushes and there is no resistance.

 

fFor vertical shots, shutter was to be placed on the lower right, again, the left hand to be underneath and on the left side (altho pointing up, palm to the right). That way, the shutter release finger only works agains the plane of the left palm and has no responsibility for steadiness - just a soft release touch.

 

It makes sense when you get it - and makes for not only steadier shots, but also better control on the angularity. You align with the steadying hand (the left) and only release the shutter with the right hadn. I found that the M8 is much easier for this technique, and thus gives much straighter shots than the DMR - which I could never get right. The shots with a DMR were for me always tilted, no matter what I did. So that one got sold!.

 

Hope this helps. The old days, when they taught how to hold these things. In a good day, you could get to 1/8 hand held, certainly 1/15.

 

Geoff