dfarkas Posted January 15, 2015 Share #141 Posted January 15, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was under the impression that the next MM with a cmos would have solved this problem but according to what you are saying blown highlights will always be a problem. Am I correct ? When I shoot with the M Monochrom, I usually dial in -2/3 EV in good light and reduce this down at high ISO settings to either -1/3 or just 0. For really high contrast scenes, I'll even bump the exposure compensation to -1 or -1 1/3 EV. The shadow recoverability of the Monochrom is so good that you can shoot this way with almost no penalty to image quality. And, you'll have perfect highlights in almost every scenario. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Hi dfarkas, Take a look here New Monochrom ?? [merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dant Posted January 17, 2015 Share #142 Posted January 17, 2015 there is a good chance that fuji x100 series will come up with a 28mm b&w only camera.unlike leica they listen to photographers demands. the major problem with MM is the blown highlights. the other problem that never got fixed is the shutter dial has no brakes, it keeps on revolving after it hits B. This is a problem that can easily be corrected. Why they chose to this with the digital Ms in the first place I will never understand. It started with the M8. Leica needs to observe Fuji in order to understand the leica philosophy and leica technique of shooting. GD...you got it backwards if you think Leica need to copy Fuji. The Fuji has screwy controls compared to Leica. I shoot both Fuji and Leica. Had 5 Leica's, pared down to 4 and have 6 Fuji's. OK, Leica can copy Fuji's sensor and price...but that is it. I agree that it would be nice if Fuji made a monochrom. What really needs to be done is for Fuji to make a Leica FF knockoff for $2500. But the design of the Leica has ben perfected eons ago. (OK, I don't need video.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted January 17, 2015 Share #143 Posted January 17, 2015 Blow highlights is not the problem. the Problem is you are not using the camera correctly. Expose for the highlights you want, simple as that...much like slide film. I do agree with you about the shutter speed dial though. I wish I there more like my M6 TTL, with brakes. Sometimes you want a little blown highlight to get the film look. rangefindercamera : Photo MM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted January 18, 2015 Share #144 Posted January 18, 2015 I posted a reply over on the Instant Savings for Monochrom thread addressing this: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/360188-leica-announces-instant-ssavings-m-monochrom.html#post2866331 I think it is more a response to the weak Euro than a sign that a new Monochrom is imminent. If that were the case, David, then why did the MM get such a large "rebate" relative to the rest of the Leica line? In any case, I imagine the MM 240 will be a tougher go than the M240 or M-P. The original MM is sooo good, as well as smaller in hand than the M240 type, that I cannot see a functional reason to change-- unless you have R lenses that beg for ueber B&W. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 18, 2015 Share #145 Posted January 18, 2015 In any case, I imagine the MM 240 will be a tougher go than the M240 or M-P. The original MM is sooo good, as well as smaller in hand than the M240 type, that I cannot see a functional reason to change-- unless you have R lenses that beg for ueber B&W. A monochrome camera will likely always be "a tougher go" sales-wise than its color counterparts, no matter how good. For an extra 1mm, one can get the benefits I cited in this earlier post, which have nothing to do with EVF or LV….depends on one's priorities and preferences. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted January 18, 2015 Share #146 Posted January 18, 2015 A monochrome camera will likely always be "a tougher go" sales-wise than its color counterparts, no matter how good. For an extra 1mm, one can get the benefits I cited in this earlier post, which have nothing to do with EVF or LV….depends on one's priorities and preferences. Jeff I completely agree as long as the file quality is maintained or exceeded. This is of course a big ask. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted January 18, 2015 Share #147 Posted January 18, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) If that were the case, David, then why did the MM get such a large "rebate" relative to the rest of the Leica line? The M240 and MM both have the same instant savings amount: $750. In any case, I imagine the MM 240 will be a tougher go than the M240 or M-P. The original MM is sooo good, as well as smaller in hand than the M240 type, that I cannot see a functional reason to change-- unless you have R lenses that beg for ueber B&W. I think when and if Leica comes out with a CMOS based Monochrom, the real advantage, other than EVF compatibility, will be even better high ISO performance. The MM already produces stunning images at ISO 6400. I imagine with a new sensor this could be bumped up to ISO 25,600. Of course, it's all speculation and the current MM is truly in a class by itself now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted January 18, 2015 Share #148 Posted January 18, 2015 The M240 and MM both have the same instant savings amount: $750. Well, thanks David, my point exactly. Doesn't Leica want to clear out the M240 as it prepares an M240turbo or M360 to support a modern era EVF (the Visoflex Typ 020 from the T line)? The M-P, the current flag bearer for M digital, is still full price, no? I think when and if Leica comes out with a CMOS based Monochrom, the real advantage, other than EVF compatibility, will be even better high ISO performance. The MM already produces stunning images at ISO 6400. I imagine with a new sensor this could be bumped up to ISO 25,600. Of course, it's all speculation and the current MM is truly in a class by itself now. The aim of my comment was just that the MM has so much headroom above my capability, it seems silly to contemplate a successor. I would pay a large upgrade fee, however, to have Leica install the M240 RF into my MM. Of course, Leica would say putting the M240 RF into the MM is not physically possible, just as Leica said putting a FF sensor into an M body was not physically possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 18, 2015 Share #149 Posted January 18, 2015 I asked Leica if they could upgrade my Monochrom and M9P rangefinders when the M(240) was released. They said no, it wouldn't fit. Fitting a full frame sensor into the M9 isn't the same thing as retrofitting that sensor into the M8 ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 18, 2015 Share #150 Posted January 18, 2015 I would pay a large upgrade fee, however, to have Leica install the M240 RF into my MM. Of course, Leica would say putting the M240 RF into the MM is not physically possible, just as Leica said putting a FF sensor into an M body was not physically possible. The electronics of the M (Typ 240) doesn’t fit the body of an M Monochrom, period. Leica could redesign the electronics so it does fit, but that would incur some substantial costs, and in the end you had a camera with a lower capacity battery, no weather sealing etc.. – less for more. It doesn’t make sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 18, 2015 Share #151 Posted January 18, 2015 I would say that the main reason for Leica would be that they would phase out the ME. Harmonizing production seems to me to be more logical than to hope for a few dozen - even few hundred- Monochrom owners to upgrade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 18, 2015 Share #152 Posted January 18, 2015 Surely Leica cannot carry on building cameras based on a 9 years old design for very much longer. The M Monochrom is a great little camera and I trust that many of its owners will continue to use it even when Leica eventually introduces a CMOS-based successor, but Leica needs to move forward anyway. Product cycles don’t usually match the useful lifetime of individual cameras in the hands of their owners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 18, 2015 Share #153 Posted January 18, 2015 I agree with both Michael and Jaap. The M-E was always a run out camera, and the success of the Monochrom has been a surprise to everyone. The CCD sensor crisis has brought to a head an issue I've been struggling with for a while. I have no problem using 9 year old technology - it's perfect for me, in the same way that my M3 is also fine, 60 years on. What doesn't work for me is paying for M3 quality in a camera which can't/won't be supported 10 years on (I am aware of Leica's commitment, and I think it is exemplary, but it is a clear indication that they need to rethink the M digital camera). I confess that I've lost faith in my M9P. It's just over 4 years old and I'm facing a second sensor replacement and the knowledge that it probably won't be supported in 10 years time. That may seem like plenty to many here, but all my previous keeper cameras (mostly Nikon film cameras) were worked to death and they lasted me over 20 years of hard use. I simply can't justify the huge premium for Leica M digitals if Leica isn't prepared to support them for a life appropriate to the price. I'm not talking about warranty - I'll pay for the repairs. This has nothing at all to do with keeping up with technology. That is irrelevant. It's about providing support for the life of an M camera, regardless of the technology. There are plenty of products which provide long term support for electronics (cars, industrial machinery etc). M cameras are not disposable. We have been duped by the upgrade mentality of the computer age. The camera takes photos - provided it continues to take pictures, upgrades and latest technology has nothing to do with it. I don't mind the T camera price so much, and if Leica made an M mount camera of a quality and price point which reflected the fact that the technology can't be supported beyond 10 years, I wouldn't mind either. However, I do object to a $10,000 camera having the problems the CCD based cameras are facing after less than 4 years. Leica needs to seriously rethink its commitment to M camera owners. That said, I'm hoping Leica has made better arrangements to support its CMOSIS sensor based cameras (I plan on using mine for a long time). I'm nervous about checking my Monochrom. I've asked Leica to give me a price to trade my M9P on an M-A. I'm hoping they will agree. I see that as a more sensible camera. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick parker Posted January 18, 2015 Share #154 Posted January 18, 2015 GD...you got it backwards if you think Leica need to copy Fuji. The Fuji has screwy controls compared to Leica. I shoot both Fuji and Leica. Had 5 Leica's, pared down to 4 and have 6 Fuji's. OK, Leica can copy Fuji's sensor and price...but that is it. I agree that it would be nice if Fuji made a monochrom. What really needs to be done is for Fuji to make a Leica FF knockoff for $2500. But the design of the Leica has ben perfected eons ago. (OK, I don't need video.) Leica has been copying itself since the M7 so why not copy a system that brought something new and useful. I'm talking about the viewfinders of the x100 series. Fuji unlike Leica does not pretend that their cameras will last 50 years, this is why they cost less and feel a bit screwy compared to digital M bodies. Considering all the sensor corrosion problems Leica ccd sensors are having the chances are Fuji's will outlast Leicas. Cameras of today are electronic based machines and truly complex and fragile ones, they just won't last as long as they feel in your hands. That was the case with most film cameras. They felt solid and they were solid, inside and out. We are living at the age of Casio watches not Rolexes. A little plastic here and there, something physically lighter than imagined is probably a more honest way of building cameras. I like my MM because there is nothing like it. I like my X100T also, it's not as revolutionary as the 1950's Leicas which the digital Ms are based on but a step forward. It gives you some serious choices, for true Leica fans the best way to put it is it's an M an R and an X all put into one. It's small, light, reliable, fast and the image quality is pretty damn good. These are the same qualities that gave Leica their fame in your words " eons ago ". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 19, 2015 Share #155 Posted January 19, 2015 Ummm..I fear the Fuji viewfinders are nothing that makes my heart beat faster - pretty good in their kind, but nowhere near the M to my eye.... Totally overcluttered. Very nice cameras though. I have used the X10 and X100 on occasion, but was happy to get back to my M/MM/M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted January 19, 2015 Share #156 Posted January 19, 2015 The electronics of the M (Typ 240) doesn’t fit the body of an M Monochrom, period. Leica could redesign the electronics so it does fit, but that would incur some substantial costs, and in the end you had a camera with a lower capacity battery, no weather sealing etc.. – less for more. It doesn’t make sense. Michael, in order to upgrade the MM OVF to the M240 OVF would require a lot of electronics? I guessed both systems were largely mechanical... do those fancy LED framelines need a bigger battery and controller boards, etc? I am not knocking the MM, incidentally. I was trying to underline how good it is and that Leica will have a hard time getting shooters to trade in MM on MM240 (IMHO). The only thing is that the OVF in the M240 is vastly superior to the M8/M9/MM OVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted January 19, 2015 Share #157 Posted January 19, 2015 Leica won't have a hard time persuading me to upgrade, and I have loved my MM since the day I got it in September 2012 (see:What We Learned Over One Year With The Leica Monochrom | Tulip Frenzy) But it is 2015, and after using the M-240 for nearly two years, it would be great to harmonize my use of a monochrome-only camera with what is, to me, a superior platform. I'd like to use R lenses with my Monochrom. Thinking about a Monochrom with higher ISO usability is exciting. The Monochrom may be a specialist camera, but I use it every bit as much as I use my M, and it would be great to upgrade it. Fingers crossed it happens in 2015. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick parker Posted January 19, 2015 Share #158 Posted January 19, 2015 Ummm..I fear the Fuji viewfinders are nothing that makes my heart beat faster - pretty good in their kind, but nowhere near the M to my eye.... Totally overcluttered.Very nice cameras though. I have used the X10 and X100 on occasion, but was happy to get back to my M/MM/M9. you know you can underclutter it to your liking through the custom menu. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 19, 2015 Share #159 Posted January 19, 2015 Yes- but then you are disabling the hybrid part, and as a non-hybrid, the Leica OVF is simply better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanetomlane Posted January 19, 2015 Share #160 Posted January 19, 2015 As I'm perfectly happy with the results from M and MM I don't normally read threads about futuristic new products, or what features people want included in the next model, but this thread caught my attention as I have been thinking what I would do IF Leica were to introduce a new Monochrom based on the M240. You'll notice above I did say I'm happy with the RESULTS from the two cameras, however, when using the M it does feel a lot more refined than the Monochrom, particularly that smooth shutter. Having considered the possibility of a new model built on the M platform I do think I would take the plunge. Apart from the more sophisticated body, one of the biggest factors for me would be the ability to have common batteries and the same battery charger, as at the moment, carrying four batteries and two chargers is a real pain. I don't think I'd be too worried about moving to the CMOS sensor, as on the occasions when I've only had the M with me I've been very happy with the converted Black and White prints I've produced from it. As for timeframe I'm not too worried; if it happens it'll happen when it happens and that'll suit me fine. Cheers, Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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