lpig Posted September 9, 2014 Share #1 Â Posted September 9, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good morning to the forum. Â Just to say that my dear M8, stolen near Venice more than one year ago, magically reappeared on sale in the eb*y store of a valued german Leica Dealer. I informed the seller, but M8 has already gone, sold to an happy (and probably unaware) customer, whose identity is protected by privacy. As for the gentleman of Leica store the question is closed, but Police and Leica are obviously informed. Â So, a message for the anonymous buyer: the camera is good, good shots! Â Leica M8 chrome (s/n 3101428) with handgrip Voigtlander 35mm 1.2 Nokton silver edition (s/n 9740281) Â Regards Marcello (Venice, Italy) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Hi lpig, Take a look here Stolen M8 reappeared ..... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
k-hawinkler Posted September 9, 2014 Share #2 Â Posted September 9, 2014 Marcello, Â I hope you get your items back very soon! Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted September 9, 2014 Share #3 Â Posted September 9, 2014 Even reputable dealers get caught out. The dealer may well have documentary evidence to show a legitimate purchase or part-exchange, and I would very much doubt that most dealers check every purchase with Leica (who couldn't respond to every query about every secondhand Leica). Attributing blame without knowing all the facts is not a solution. I hope that the original owner gets the camera back and the resulting loss on the purchase/sale of the camera will in itself be a deterrent to dealer's who I am sure don't want to face losses. Naming here would, I feel, be inappropriate at this stage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 9, 2014 Share #4 Â Posted September 9, 2014 This is legally not simple in Germany. Most likely the person who bought from the dealer can keep the camera as he bought it in good faith from a normally trustworthy source. However, there is a case to be made against the dealer. They will have to show that they bought the camera in good faith as well, and that it cannot be reasonably assumed that they should have ascertained the provenance. If sthis is not the case they might well be liable to refund the price they received for the camera to you (or your insurance company). If there are more persons in the chain the liability shifts again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted September 9, 2014 Share #5 Â Posted September 9, 2014 Even reputable dealers get caught out. The dealer may well have documentary evidence to show a legitimate purchase or part-exchange, and I would very much doubt that most dealers check every purchase with Leica (who couldn't respond to every query about every secondhand Leica). Attributing blame without knowing all the facts is not a solution. I hope that the original owner gets the camera back and the resulting loss on the purchase/sale of the camera will in itself be a deterrent to dealer's who I am sure don't want to face losses. Naming here would, I feel, be inappropriate at this stage. Â I don't understand why Leica don't keep a database of gear reported as stolen, accessible by their dealer network at the very least and, ideally, by members of the public too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 9, 2014 Share #6 Â Posted September 9, 2014 You're not in Germany, I think ... Keeping such a database would impose a liability in case the database were incomplete or in error. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted September 9, 2014 Share #7 Â Posted September 9, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Most likely the person who bought from the dealer can keep the camera as he bought it in good faith from a normally trustworthy source. I 'think' that this is the UK position too. Â To maintain and update a 'stolen' equipment database would take substantial time and effort and would rely on recovered equipment being reported as such which may not happen. Difficult indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted September 9, 2014 Share #8  Posted September 9, 2014 I 'think' that this is the UK position too. To maintain and update a 'stolen' equipment database would take substantial time and effort and would rely on recovered equipment being reported as such which may not happen. Difficult indeed.  It isn't actually. I bought a used Cartier wristwatch from a very respectable London Bond Street jeweller only to discover when I took it in to Cartier to have the battery replaced some years later that it was part of a stolen consignment. Cartier kept hold of the watch and their insurers claimed title. Fortunately, the shop from whom I'd bought the watch paid to satisfy the insurance company and the watch was released back to me with good title. Patek Philppe are even more rigorous. No spare parts for any of their watches are released without proof of ownership and if a watch, previously notified as stolen, is sent to them for repair the registered owner is contacted and the watch is held to either their or their insurers order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeswe Posted September 9, 2014 Share #9 Â Posted September 9, 2014 I assume the camera serial number was registered as stolen in Solms/Wetzlar. From a reputable dealer I would expect to make sure that he is not trafficking in stolen goods by at least cross checking the serial numbers of such valuable items. Hard to believe that such a cross check would really take weeks when the inquiry is made by an official Leica dealer ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpig Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share #10 Â Posted September 10, 2014 Many thanks for all your interesting contributions but, above all, for your support. All the actors in the story are well informed, the last seller, german police, italian police and Leica. The thief and the actual owner are missing.... So let's see what will happen in the next few days. Â regards marcello Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted September 10, 2014 Share #11 Â Posted September 10, 2014 If digital camera is stolen in a street it usually means that no manual, charger, spare batteries etc would be available to be included into sale unless somehow sourced by tief or provided by dealer. Â If dealer completes missing bits for digital camera kit to be fit for sale to general public than he is complicit, no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted September 10, 2014 Share #12 Â Posted September 10, 2014 Not all cameras sold without charger or manual are stolen. Â We don't know how many of those accesories have been replaced before the kit reached the dealer in question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpig Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share #13 Â Posted October 23, 2014 From Leica Camera AG: Â "Dear Mr. ....., as promised, here is our feedback from our sales representative. Â Mrs. ...., owner of .... Photo, assured us, that she tried to buy back the camera from their customer at full price. He refused her offer, even though she told him, that the camera was stolen and, if the police will come, he will loose money. I'm very sorry, that I'm not able to give you better news. So the only way to get the camera back is to use the help of the police. Again, I'm sorry, that Leica can't help you now. I will register the camera as a stolen product in our data base in the customer care. Â Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards" Â No words to say. No one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 23, 2014 Share #14 Â Posted October 23, 2014 From Leica Camera AG:Â "Dear Mr. ....., as promised, here is our feedback from our sales representative. Â Mrs. ...., owner of .... Photo, assured us, that she tried to buy back the camera from their customer at full price. He refused her offer, even though she told him, that the camera was stolen and, if the police will come, he will loose money. I'm very sorry, that I'm not able to give you better news. So the only way to get the camera back is to use the help of the police. Again, I'm sorry, that Leica can't help you now. I will register the camera as a stolen product in our data base in the customer care. Â Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards" Â No words to say. No one. Â Karma would suggest that the camera develops the dreaded yellow stain, or otherwise requires company service. Â Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted October 24, 2014 Share #15 Â Posted October 24, 2014 In Oz stolen is stolen. The camera belongs to the original owner. Here the police have the power to seize the goods and return them to the original owner. Then it's up to the buyer to seek refund from the store. Â If the store knows who bought the camera then, here at least, it would be returned to you. Â Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpig Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share #16  Posted October 27, 2014 In Oz stolen is stolen. The camera belongs to the original owner. ...  Many thanks for your contributions  Just for your information: 1) The camera was stolen in Italy, April 2013 2) The camera was on sale on Ebay.de, July 2014. The offer was retired by the seller (an important german dealer) before the end. As to the offer, the camera could be sent everywhere in the world, except Italy (!!!) 3) I found the offer on the web (in Google cache), August 2014. The seller, ebay.de, Leica AG, IT Police, DE Police were informed immediatly. 4) The seller told me "we have bought the M8 during a photo stock exchange from a supplier present there and have resold them some time later with Ebay". The identities of supplier and customer are both protected by privacy (!!!). 5) I asked to Leica Camera AG "Why should I buy my next Leica in a Certified Leica Shop? I will have no more warranties of a garage sale...." 6) The dealer assured to Leica that he "tried to buy back the camera from their customer at full price", but the customer refused the offer, even though now well informed that the camera was stolen (!!! a good camera but a crazy customer, I suppose...). 7) There is a valued Leica Dealer in Germany where you can buy a stolen Leica at the price of a "clear" one. 8) Buying/selling/trading stolen material is persecuted by law, in Italy, in Germany, everywhere.   update:  9) I asked the german seller to pay me the same amount of money for the full property of the camera, including software, box and warranty certificate. Every problem will be solved and this should avoid any concern about dealer's and customer integrity.  Now waiting for a feedback...  Here is the camera: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/233633-stolen-m8-reappeared/?do=findComment&comment=2695894'>More sharing options...
-ph- Posted October 28, 2014 Share #17 Â Posted October 28, 2014 The German law is quite clear: you cannot buy anything in "good faith". If you purchase a stolen good, you are not the rightful owner. It has to be returned to the rightful owner without compensation. The only open question is, whether you are guilty of trafficking or you can prove that you had no reason to suspect foul play. But this only affects a possible penalty for the buyer, not the rights to the good itself. Â The same applies for the dealer. So if the dealer is known, and especially if there are hints that the dealer knows the identity of the buyer, you need to press charges at the German police. The dealer committed a criminal offense. Â Just read your update - if the buyer is known and does not transfer the money, you can ask the police to collect the camera for you... Â Best regards, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpig Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share #18 Â Posted October 29, 2014 ... you can ask the police to collect the camera for you.. Â Many thanks Peter! I will be very plain and explicit with Police. I will ask to do it. Â marcello Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted October 29, 2014 Share #19 Â Posted October 29, 2014 For information. Ebay in the UK has this to say: "We don't allow the sale of stolen property on eBay because it violates local and international law. We also strongly support efforts by law enforcement to investigate attempts to sell stolen property on our site. If we see this activity taking place, we'll proactively notify law enforcement and help in their efforts to investigate and prosecute members who violate this policy." You would have to check ebay's German policy, but in such a case I can't see 'privacy' being a valid reason for ebay to withhold information from the police, or for that matter from you if you want to take a prosecution forward or attempt to repossess your property. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted October 31, 2014 Share #20 Â Posted October 31, 2014 Sorry to read this all. Can one still find the original offer in Ebay? It would be interesting to know, which "valued" dealer offers such articles. Sold or closed offers are parameters for the search in Ebay. Â On the other hand is it difficult to blame the dealer. Some one offers a used camera without bill, buys something else perhaps ...... Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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