Using 1950s LTM lenses with an M9

[ironringer]

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Could M9 owners who use 1950s LTM screwmount lenses (Elmar, Summitar, Summicron) with Leitz M adapter rings, please inform me/us:

a) what framelines appear in the M9 viewfinder, when using a 5 cm Elmar/Summitar/Summicron with a Leitz screwmount adapter marked 2.8-5 cm ?

same question about framelines, when using LTM 5 cm lenses with a Leitz screwmount adapter marked 90, or 21-35 and 135 ?

c) is there a menu function on the M9 screen, to "inform" the camera to understand it is being used with a Leica 5 cm standard lens? - not necessarily making the frame lines for 50 mm, but to inform the camera software about the focal length and f# of the Leica lens -

d) IF there is a menu setting for an LTM Leica lens used with an M adapter ring, does this setting enable anything useful, such as software correction of the digital image (to adjust vignetting, distortion, etc.)?

e) is it possible to mark-"code" the "90" M adapter ring with the code bars for a 5 cm Elmar or Summicron, to automatically inform the M9 electronics of the lens being used, for any useful purpose? (i.e. what does that coding actually perform?)

f) does Leica provide any documentation about the use of old LTM lenses with M adapter rings on the M9, or M8 cameras?

I appreciate learning about any user experience with LTM lenses on an M9, especially about coding an adapter ring to possibly do something useful.

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[UliWer]

The original Leitz adapters trigger the framelines according to what is marked on the adapter:

 

50 - 90/(28) - 35/135mm.

 

You can choose manual lens detection in the camera's menu like for any other lens. Though I'd say there is not much difference for 50mm or longer, but it makes sense for avoiding vignetting and colour shift for 35 or 28mm. Distortion is not corrected by the camera, and really you won't need that.

 

You can choose a lens from the menu which is closest to your LTM-lens, e.g. a 2.8/50 Elmar for the 3.5/50, a 35mm Summicron for a 35mm Elmar or Summaron and a 28mm Elmarit for the 28mm Summaron. Though you may try out any other option, as long as you are sure that the right framelines are shown by the adapter. You can change the framelines only mechanically with the adapter, never by changing the manual lens detection in the camera's menu.

 

I think there are third party's adapters which have marks for coding them manually, but I never used them since the menu does what you need.

 

There is no specific Leica documentation about the use of LTM-lenses on digital bodies - they rely on this Forum

[ironringer]

Thank you for this useful information. I do not have an M9, so I will ask more questions.

If I understand correctly, the mechanical shape of the M adapter ring defines the frameline(s) (single or pair) that appear in the M9 viewfinder.

Separately, you can select the focal length and f# of the LTM lens that is similar to the choices of modern lenses in the menu, to obtain "some type" of functionality in the camera's electronics and computer.

Therefore I assume that the coding marks on an adapter are unnecessary, since the same functionality (identifying a lens) is provided through the menu selection of a hopefully-similar lens.

What is that functionality provided? Is it limited to identification of the modern lens (selected from the menu) in the EXIF data for each image? Or is some image processing also enabled - vignetting corrections, colour corrections, etc.?

Have any Forum users compared the M9's image processing for modern lenses in the menu, against performance of older LTM lenses with the M9, to identify good or not-so-good corrections performed by the software?

And - can you enter a generic lens type, to perform NO image processing in the M9 (perhaps best for older LTM lenses)?

[250swb]

First things first. To code an older lens the adapter needs to bring up the correct framelines, so if it is a 5cm or 50mm lens the adapter has to bring up the 50mm framelines and it has to be coded as a 50mm lens. The camera won't allow coding to work if there is a mismatch between adapter and code, but any 50mm lens can use any other 50mm lens code, so if you want to play by coding a 3.5 Elmar as a 1.4 Summilux it won't hurt anything, but the camera will think you have a Summilux on and not an Elmar.

 

Generally speaking lenses 35mm and wider benefit from the software corrections, but obviously there won't be a code for something like a 35mm Summaron, so you choose something that is closest, and you may need to try a couple of options in the 35mm inventory until you find the best for that lens. Ditto the other focal lengths. Ditto for any other manufacturers lenses such as modern CV screw mount lenses or older Canon LTM lenses.

 

To code a lens you need to apply the code, and the older Leitz adapters aren't the best for that and it is much cheaper to buy a set of codable adapters on Ebay. These have the coding pits machined in and you simply apply matt black paint. The approach of using a 'Sharpie' on the adapter did work on the M8, but the M9 is more critical and needs a very opaque black mark to work. And also even if you find a permanent ink pen that works it will rub off very quickly. You could simply put a code in manually, but that not only means you need to remember to do it, but it also slows down changing lenses.

 

Steve

[luigi bertolotti]

Just to add a bit to the very clear explanations above, Leica does not have any "profile" for old LTM lenses : only way, as said, is manually setting one that is "next to"... I tried, for instance, to use the Summaron 2,8 cm and did notice some difference in vignetting (on M240) if I set manually a 28mm or a 21mm.

 

I bought some LTM adapters with milled holes to paint the 6 bit code : in practical terms, is useful only if you, with those adapters and some new lenses, end up with a lenses' set that is WHOLLY coded... at this point you can set permanently "lens detection auto" and forget of; this is not my case (too many old lenses to play with... ) and if you anyway need sometime to set manually the lens... is simpler always doing like this... (personally, I prefer to have the mindset "mount a lens, inform manually the camera" than "mount a lens - is it coded ? then set auto detection.. oh, was the previous lens also a coded one ? ok... ")

 

And speaking of LTM lenses of the '50s, one must remember WELL that the 3rd party adapters with coding capability have NOT the cutout that there is in most of the original Leitz adapters, and this is VERY disturbing for the old lenses that have the focusing knob (Elmars 35/50, Summaron 28, first Summaron 35 Summarit 50, first Summicron 50, Summitar 50...)

[UliWer]

...What is that functionality provided? Is it limited to identification of the modern lens (selected from the menu) in the EXIF data for each image? Or is some image processing also enabled - vignetting corrections, colour corrections, etc.?

For lenses longer than 50mm my impression is that there is no discernible effect of using any lens code (for a rare exception look below). With 35mm or shorter the correction becomes effective for vignetting as well as avoiding colour shift (with extreme wide angles e.g. the 21mm Super-Angulon or a Voigtlaender 15mm which come with LTM it may be that you cannot really avoid "red edges".)

 

Have any Forum users compared the M9's image processing for modern lenses in the menu, against performance of older LTM lenses with the M9, to identify good or not-so-good corrections performed by the software?

 

Luigi gave an example for the 28mm Summaron with different lens corrections from the menu. I once tried the 1.4/75 Summilux detection for the 1.5/85 Summarex - but the vignetting correction was much too strong resulting in very bright edges. Best way for longer focal lengthes is no correction at all.

 

And - can you enter a generic lens type, to perform NO image processing in the M9 (perhaps best for older LTM lenses)?

 

You don't need to enter anything, you just switch off lens detection - so there is no image processing in camera.

 

The M9 has three options:

1. Lens detection off.

2. Automatic lens detection - works only with coded lenses.

3. Lens detection choosen manually from a menu the camera offers.

[A miller]

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FWIW, I regularly use my 50mm elmar (f3.5) and 28mm summaron (f5.6) on my M9 and I love the results. I honestly can't remember off of the top the deal with the frame lines, but in any case it is not a problem and I just manually set up the "lens detection" using the closest old lens on the list. Not an issue. Framelines are there and fine. You should focus on the rendering, which is special in the sense that the old lenses have a high degree of contrast which really pumps up the saturation of the colors which gives a nice slide film rendering. Have fun.

[250swb]

And speaking of LTM lenses of the '50s, one must remember WELL that the 3rd party adapters with coding capability have NOT the cutout that there is in most of the original Leitz adapters, and this is VERY disturbing for the old lenses that have the focusing knob (Elmars 35/50, Summaron 28, first Summaron 35 Summarit 50, first Summicron 50, Summitar 50...)

 

You can get the code Ebay adapters with and without the cut out. I have both types.

 

For anybody new to mounting LTM lenses on adapters the other thing that should be mentioned is that there are adapters that mount the lens offset as per the original mounting on a Barnack Leica, and those adapters that mount the lens square with the focus scale centred. There isn't a right or a wrong to it, only preference.

 

Steve

[TomB_tx]

I use a lot of old LTM lenses with my M9, including (50s) Elmar 3.5 & 2.8, Summar, Summitar, Summicron, as well as Canon, Nikkor, and Tokyo Optical, and (35s) Summaron 3.5, And Canon, as well as 90 Elmar and 135 Nikkor. Some of mine date back to the 1930s and 40s.

I don't bother coding the adapters, and just select from the manual coding menu. The corrections may not be a perfect match, but the effects can be very pleasing, and many of the lenses are quite good, even on digital.

I only have a couple of Leica lenses from this century.

[bocaburger]

Also be mindful of the collapsible lenses. Some of them shouldn't be pushed all the way back into the M9 body.

[iaeaix]

Using proper adapter will give you good results of those old lens. I have tried canon ltm 50/1.2, 50/1.5, 35/1.8, 35/2, Leitz summaron 35/3.5, summarit 50/1.5 etc... No problem at all.

Corner fall off seems pretty bad with summaron 35/3.5(not bad at all with 2.8 version on the same machine though), all the others works pretty well, 35/2 canon ltm seems the best performer among the old ltm 35mms in my hand, if we are talking about the iq cross the frame. But the image is more flat view than Leica's, which is expected.

[john neal]

I tried an adapter with the cut out and the 6-bit code slots. Unfortunately, the cut out removed most of the width of the coding slots - to the point that the body would not read the code.

 

Solution now for any of the older lenses that need the cutout is to manually set the camera to the nearest reading. Lenses that don't need a cutout (e.g.Canon 50 f1.4) get a full flange and the ability to leave the body on auto detect.

 

I also bought one of the Roxsen (sp?) replacement backplates (6 hole), but the holes in the plate would not line up with my 35 'cron, sadly. It would have been a nice fix otherwise.