looks like there could be a ne MM on the way

[250swb]

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We're, what, within 4-6 months of a likely announcement of a next generation M? Let's hope that. if there's a new MM in the pipeline, it's based on Leica's next generation CMOS, with a better than the M's 1.3 ISO bump over the M9 vintage CCD technology, and for goodness sakes, without the fatter form factor!

 

I don't know if there is some fundamental technical problem with CMOS sensors that would obviate the same improvement, but the current MM at 5000 ISO is about the same tonally as a B&W conversion from an M9 file shot at 800 ISO (and the MM noise is more attractive). So following the theory a 1.3 stop increase in ISO performance would take an M240 based Monochrom to 10,000 ISO of easily useable range. And you are complaining?

 

Steve

Edited August 2, 2014 by 250swb

[Delcredere]

I wonder how many MM owners and prospective MM purchasers think it is a significant advantage to have video and to be able use R and other third party lenses? To my way of thinking the smaller this percentage is the lesser the probability of Leica bringing out soon a new version of the MM.

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[Jeff S]

I wonder how many MM owners and prospective MM purchasers think it is a significant advantage to have video and to be able use R and other third party lenses? To my way of thinking the smaller this percentage is the lesser the probability of Leica bringing out soon a new version of the MM.

 

I wouldn't care about either of those. But I like the M platform in terms of its better RF, quieter shutter and smoother release, better battery, faster processor, 2m frame lines, increased resolution, weather sealing, and more. It's a better built RF camera, forgetting about alternative uses and features.

 

The quality of the pics, of course, is up to the user.

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

If a new MM would be a monochrome M I would have no interest whatever.

I think that for many owners the MM is as close to a lifetime camera as is possible in the digital world.

Edited August 2, 2014 by jaapv

[jaapv]

I wonder how many MM owners and prospective MM purchasers think it is a significant advantage to have video and to be able use R and other third party lenses? To my way of thinking the smaller this percentage is the lesser the probability of Leica bringing out soon a new version of the MM.

 

The percentage would be very low, I think. What R lenses specifically for B&W? And monochrome video- only for the super-specialist.

[Jeff S]

If a new MM would be a monochrome M I would have no interest whatever.

 

I remember similar statements about other cameras you've bought.

 

Jeff

[richfx]

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I wonder how many MM owners and prospective MM purchasers think it is a significant advantage to have video and to be able use R and other third party lenses? To my way of thinking the smaller this percentage is the lesser the probability of Leica bringing out soon a new version of the MM.

 

No interest in the M 240's features, especially a CMOS sensor, for the MM. It is wonderful as is.

 

I have an M9, and have had no interest in an M 240 due primarily to its sensor and video capability (more to break / stop working with video). CCD sensors have better IQ than CMOS to me, and video is completely unnecessary for my shooting style. I can use my iPhone or P+S for short clips.

 

Let's hope Leica realizes that sometimes, as with the M3, it's not only unnecessary, but quite possibly inadvisable, to change what it has created.

Edited August 2, 2014 by rcerick

[Guest obsidian0]

I don't know if there is some fundamental technical problem with CMOS sensors that would obviate the same improvement, but the current MM at 5000 ISO is about the same tonally as a B&W conversion from an M9 file shot at 800 ISO (and the MM noise is more attractive). So following the theory a 1.3 stop increase in ISO performance would take an M240 based Monochrom to 10,000 ISO of easily useable range. And you are complaining?Steve

 

Under no circumstances would I consider an MM240. I am in the camp that sees Image Quality tradeoffs in the move from CCD to CMOS. I use words like plasticky to describe the output from certain CMOS sensors. I decry the colors from certain CMOS sensors, compared to their CCD predecessors. Certainly not everyone agrees with me, and equally, certainly not everyone disagrees with me.

 

Leica's first CMOS foray did not impress me, particularly given the very modest gains in usable ISO, and in the M240 case, troublesome color at least in the early days.

 

I was also disappointed by the departure of discreet mode. My MM in soft + discreet is quieter (without shutter release) than any M240 (with shutter release) I've handled, rented or observed in the field -- and that's dozens. My M9P is only slightly louder than the M240. (Although my personal MM is quieter than many other MM's I've seen).

 

Furthermore, I dislike the 'frankenleica' feel (sorry) of the M240, the added weight and fatter form factor, have no interest in LV, and see little utility in chimping the image, as opposed to the histogram, on a larger screen.

 

Better overall high ISO image quality than the existing MM, on the M240 CMOS? It's one person's opinion, but I'm doubtful. Leica is still playing catchup in the CMOS imager game. I will review the next generation M with interest, including any MM variant.

Edited August 2, 2014 by obsidian0

[richfx]

Under no circumstances would I consider an MM240. I am in the camp that sees Image Quality tradeoffs in the move from CCD to CMOS. I use words like "plasticky" to describe the output from certain CMOS sensors. I decry the colors from certain CMOS sensors, compared to their CCD predecessors. Certainly not everyone agrees with me, and equally, certainly not everyone disagrees with me. Leica's first CMOS foray did not impress me, particularly given the very modest gains in usable ISO, and in the M240 case, troublesome color at least in the early days. I was also disappointed by the departure of discreet mode. My MM in soft + discreet is quieter (without shutter release) than any M240 (with shutter release) I've handled, rented or observed in the field -- and that's dozens. My M9P is only slightly louder than the M240. (Although MM is quieter than many other MM's I've seen). Furthermore, I dislike the 'frankenleica' feel (sorry) of the M240, dislike the added weight and fatter form factor, have no interest in LV, and see little utility in chimping the image, as opposed to the histogram, on a larger screen. Better overall high ISO image quality than the existing MM, on the M240 CMOS? It's one person's opinion, but I'm doubtful.

 

+1.

[richfx]

Plasticky is exactly the right word to me for CMOS sensors' IQ and output (and I've tried a number of them). This was most recently more than evident in the Tour de France's television coverage in the States, where most helicopter shots displayed great splotches of smeared color where trees, woods and mountains were. I don't know how long these sensors have been used for such coverage, but three or so years ago the TV copter coverage was stunning in its detail and clarity. I assume it was because the cameras' sensors were CCD at that time, but that's just a guess.

 

In any event, I much prefer CCD to CMOS sensors for still photography. Not every technological move forward is better to me. Recall the high-end German analogue tube radios of the 50's and 60's (SABA, Telefunken and others). They had (and still have) sonic fidelity and quality that transistors and ICs have never been able to touch, IMHO.

Edited August 2, 2014 by rcerick

[BerndReini]

CMOS sensors are only partly at fault for the color smearing in television coverage. It actually happens due to the rolling shutter in motion picture cameras. There are higher end CMOS cameras that have a global shutter and they do not exhibit this problem. What happens without the global shutter is that the camera moves while the sensor is being read out line by line. With still cameras you can recreate the problem when you shoot fast moving objects in live view. But the color smearing you are referring to has nothing to do with the color output from a CMOS sensor.

[jaapv]

I remember similar statements about other cameras you've bought.

 

Jeff

 

Indeed, a statement of the M9 vs the M, but that was being unaware of the new features ( and Jono's powers of persuasion ) Note that I say If it is a monochrome version of the M. That is rather precise.

Edited August 3, 2014 by jaapv

[richfx]

CMOS sensors are only partly at fault for the color smearing in television coverage. It actually happens due to the rolling shutter in motion picture cameras. There are higher end CMOS cameras that have a global shutter and they do not exhibit this problem. What happens without the global shutter is that the camera moves while the sensor is being read out line by line. With still cameras you can recreate the problem when you shoot fast moving objects in live view. But the color smearing you are referring to has nothing to do with the color output from a CMOS sensor.

 

It's hard to believe that NBC / Comcast, which broadcasts the Tour and is one of the largest global broadcast players, has anything but the best available equipment.

[Jeff S]

Leica's first CMOS foray did not impress me, particularly given the very modest gains in usable ISO, and in the M240 case, troublesome color at least in the early days.

 

I was also disappointed by the departure of discreet mode. My MM in soft + discreet is quieter (without shutter release) than any M240 (with shutter release) I've handled, rented or observed in the field --

 

People have short memories, or are perhaps just ignorant, about the myriad early color issues with the M9. The forum was similarly filled with complaints for some time.

 

It's not the shutter sound that bothers people about the digital Ms prior to the M240; it's the obnoxious motor re-cock sound. Last I checked, one's finger eventually needs to come off the shutter in discreet mode and, when it does, buzzzz. No such sound and no such messing around with timing the release of the M240 shutter…just shoot away any time, any place. And the shutter release mechanism is smoother, too.

 

Different strokes, indeed.

 

Jeff

[Guest obsidian0]

Last I checked, one's finger eventually needs to come off the shutter in discreet mode and, when it does, buzzzz. Jeff

 

It certainly needn't when I'm up close and personal. I wouldn't trade my MM's quieter shutter release for the M240's louder full cycle. No way, I'd lose too many captures. Removal of the discreet mode was a step backward in functionality, whenever I've borrowed, rented or handled an M240.

[Jeff S]

Indeed, a statement of the M9 vs the M, but that was being unaware of the new features ( and Jon's powers of persuasion ) Note that I say If it is a monochrome version of the M. That is rather precise.

 

C'mon, Jaap…you weren't even going to buy the first MM, even dismissing it as a possibility [ eating my words ].

 

And then you weren't going to buy the M (and you probably knew more about its features than most here).

 

And who's to say what new 'features' may appear in some future M iteration that you can claim similar ignorance about?

 

It's ok, we understand the disease...

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

It certainly needn't when I'm up close and personal.

 

Oh, you mean for one shot? Then what…retreat to another place to release finger?…or lower camera and risk missing next quick shot?

 

I've never had a noise issue with the M, in any circumstance. I still own the M8.2, gave up using discreet mode, and now it sits on a shelf…very quietly.

 

For me, the M shutter release is a major leap forward (or backward, as it's much closer to my film Ms for ease and quiet).

 

To each his/her own.

 

Jeff

[250swb]

 

Better overall high ISO image quality than the existing MM, on the M240 CMOS? It's one person's opinion, but I'm doubtful. Leica is still playing catchup in the CMOS imager game. I will review the next generation M with interest, including any MM variant.

 

You could have saved your time writing all that waffle if you'd paid attention to the fact I was only responding to a post about the 1.3 ISO range improvement in the M over the M9. At no point did I say I liked the M better than the M9 or the MM nor did I intend to get into the 'my camera is better than yours' syndrome that seems to be a feature of some posters comments.

 

As regards the hot topic of 'stealth release' I never used it on my M9 or now with my MM, it seems a creepy way to go around making photographs, given the need to run away and take your finger off the button at some point, or do you suddenly develop a cough?

 

Steve

[jaapv]

Both true, . I'll not say it. Otoh, I was going to buy the T, but didn't. Nobody called me out on that

 

However, you misread my post.

 

I never said here I would not buy a new version of the MM. I said if it is a monochrome version of the M

I find it of no interest, as the two main features of the M, the ability to take M lenses and Video, mentioned by a poster, add little to a B&W camera.

 

It's OK,I recognise the discussion technique. .

 

 

C'mon, Jaap…you weren't even going to buy the first MM, even dismissing it as a possibility [ eating my words ].

 

And then you weren't going to buy the M (and you probably knew more about its features than most here).

 

And who's to say what new 'features' may appear in some future M iteration that you can claim similar ignorance about?

 

It's ok, we understand the disease...

 

Jeff

Edited August 3, 2014 by jaapv

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[jaapv]

People have short memories, or are perhaps just ignorant, about the myriad early color issues with the M9. The forum was similarly filled with complaints for some time.

 

It's not the shutter sound that bothers people about the digital Ms prior to the M240; it's the obnoxious motor re-cock sound. Last I checked, one's finger eventually needs to come off the shutter in discreet mode and, when it does, buzzzz. No such sound and no such messing around with timing the release of the M240 shutter…just shoot away any time, any place. And the shutter release mechanism is smoother, too.

 

Different strokes, indeed.

 

Jeff

Indeed, and the M8 needed an elaborate AWB update within the year. Part of the problem is habituation. After a certain period of time posters move from complaining to praising. There is nothing as subjective as colour perception..