Rick Posted July 5, 2014 Share #161 Posted July 5, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) It is not supposed to display anything else than the setting you've chosen. Same in the set menu. I can't seem to perceive any bug in that. It doesn't display the current ISO (bug). It says AUTO which is of no use because, by definition your are in Manual and therefore need to manage your manual ISO. Except, in this mode you can't check what ISO the camera is in because, the camera is continuing to display AUTO instead of the current ISO. That is what I believe is a bug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Hi Rick, Take a look here Remaining/new bugs in FW 2.0.1.5. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted July 5, 2014 Share #162 Posted July 5, 2014 There are two auto iso modes, Rick. One with auto shutter speeds ("A" position of the shutter speed dial), and the other with manual shutter speeds (any position of the shutter speed dial but "A" or "B"). Both are auto iso modes though. Sounds like we will have to agree to disagree on that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted July 5, 2014 Share #163 Posted July 5, 2014 Aren't there three auto ISO modes? One with auto shutter speeds ("A" position of the shutter speed dial) One with manual shutter speeds (any position of the shutter speed dial but "A" or "B") One with manual shutter speeds (any position of the shutter speed dial but "A" or "B") and a fixed ISO value selected before selecting auto ISO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 5, 2014 Share #164 Posted July 5, 2014 One with manual shutter speeds (any position of the shutter speed dial but "A" or "B") and a fixed ISO value selected before selecting auto ISO Just the "Previous ISO" option enabled i guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted July 7, 2014 Share #165 Posted July 7, 2014 The trouble is that it wasn't a couple of people with an ill-considered request. Sorry to disagree. MJH for instance, and still several people here still feel that Auto-ISO is inconsistent with manual mode. I don't care who those people are. They were wrong. Changing the shutter-speed setting mustn't affect the ISO setting, as simple as that. It didn't slip by (I promise!). Yeah ... this is exactly what concerns me Why do you even need the option, if you want Manual ISO in manual mode, just choose it! This is why the M9 solution was right and the original M (Typ 240) solution was wrong. But then, I don't care if the wrong solution is implemented in my camera as long as it is optional (which it is now, thankfully). In any case, it really is desirable to know which ISO value the camera chooses when in auto-ISO mode ... it should be displayed in the INFO screen (and, in manual-shutter-speed mode, also in the viewfinder, in place of the shutter speed). So with regard to this point, I mostly agree with Rick—except that I wouldn't call it a bug but a missing feature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 7, 2014 Share #166 Posted July 7, 2014 If, Steve Jobs thought this way your Mac would be a PC. But when Steve was wrong, it was spectacular. Remember when the Apple logo on the laptops was upside-down when opened? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 7, 2014 Share #167 Posted July 7, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) But when Steve was wrong, it was spectacular. Remember when the Apple logo on the laptops was upside-down when opened? . Unfair! Whoever expected anyone to open them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted July 8, 2014 Share #168 Posted July 8, 2014 Sorry to disagree. I don't care who those people are. They were wrong. Changing the shutter-speed setting mustn't affect the ISO setting, as simple as that. Hi O1af - personally (as you know) I completely agree with you, absolutely, 100%. . . . . . except that when there are two schools of thought and we are right and they are wrong it's important to be kind to these misguided and misled folks and offer them a little sympathy (in this case an option). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 8, 2014 Share #169 Posted July 8, 2014 Changing the shutter-speed setting mustn't affect the ISO setting, as simple as that. personally (as you know) I completely agree with you, absolutely, 100%. . . . . . except that when there are two schools of thought and we are right and they are wrong it's important to be kind to these misguided and misled folks and offer them a little sympathy (in this case an option). Changing the shutter speed setting must affect the iso setting, well guided folks, failing which there is no auto iso anymore. No problem to offer you a lot of sympathy though . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 8, 2014 Share #170 Posted July 8, 2014 Hi O1af - personally (as you know) I completely agree with you, absolutely, 100%. . . . . . except that when there are two schools of thought and we are right and they are wrong it's important to be kind to these misguided and misled folks and offer them a little sympathy (in this case an option). Both sides of the argument consider me misguided and misled:o:o....Because I see merit in both approaches:( Does that entitle me to a double dose of sympathy? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted July 8, 2014 Share #171 Posted July 8, 2014 Leica should sell little pads of post-it notes on which the misguided can write their last manually selected ISO value. Stuck on the screen this will provide a handy reminder of what will happen when they change from auto shutter speed to manual while in one of the auto ISO modes. If you're too cool to chimp then stick it on the top of the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted July 8, 2014 Share #172 Posted July 8, 2014 I'm personally in the camp that says there should be no auto iso in manual. I normally switch to manual from auto to override what auto is doing because I don't like it. If auto iso remains on, there is no point in being in manual, and an extra step to change the iso setting is required: slow. On the other hand, there is no point in shooting auto iso with manual, you select the f stop and tell the camera your minimum shutter speed and maximum iso. What extra control would going manual with auto iso give you? None. Therefore, auto iso should automatically switch off when the shutter dial is moved from auto. Now what iso should the camera switch to? That's a difficult question. Last user selected setting? Last iso selected in auto mode when the shutter button was half depressed? I think this would be more logical as it reflects the appropriate iso to the current lighting. Or why not let the user select which iso would he like the camera to revert to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted July 8, 2014 Share #173 Posted July 8, 2014 I'm personally in the camp that says there should be no auto ISO in manual. After some more thinking, I believe the root of this confusion simply is to mistake the manual shutter-speed selection for a global manual-exposure mode. But when in auto-shutter-speed-and-auto-ISO mode then turning the shutter-speed dial away from "A" is not, repeat: NOT the same as setting the camera into full manual mode. Instead, the camera remains in auto-exposure mode, however with just one parameter for the camera to automatically adjust (ISO) rather than two (shutter speed and ISO). To see the flaw in your logic, simply imagine the ISO setting was not done via menu but via an extra ISO dial which would also include an "A" setting for auto-ISO. Now would you advocate for a feature that magically moves the ISO dial away from "A" whenever the user moves the shutter-speed dial away from"A"? No, you wouldn't. Or consider the Leica X1 or X2. They have two dials on the top, one for aperture, the other for shutter speed, both including an "A". If both are set to "A" then the camera is in full auto mode, adjusting both aperture and shutter speed automatically. Same principle as above, just for a different subset of exposure parameters. Now should the aperture dial magically move away away from "A" every time the user selects a fixed shutter speed? Because "otherwise it's not manual mode"? Of course not, because manual mode is when the user selects fixed values for all exposure parameters, not just one (or two). Auto-ISO is a perfectly valid automatic exposure mode. It must not be disabled just because some persons want a short-cut to full manual mode. If you want full manual mode then don't set ISO to "Auto", as simple as that. If I set ISO to "Auto" then I want it to be auto, as simple as that. Fortunately, this topic is moot now. However I'm still having troubles to believe that Leica Camera really did such a non-photographer's implementation for a vital function in a camera that is the archetype of a photographer's camera just because a few persons asked for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 8, 2014 Share #174 Posted July 8, 2014 Not sure is there is any mistake or confusion here. Some Leica users want the shutter speed dial to enable manual exposure mode when they choose a manual speed with it. That is why Leica implemented the "Previous ISO" option i guess. When enabling this option, the simple choice of a manual speed is supposed to switch the camera in manual exposure mode as expected. Except that there is apparently a bug in this new feature. Instead of reverting to the previous iso setting the camera (at least mine) selects 200 iso now. I can't seem to recall having discussed this matter during the beta testing but i may be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted July 8, 2014 Share #175 Posted July 8, 2014 There is no flaw in my logic. We just have different shooting styles. I have to thank Leica for providing the 2 options so that we can both be happy and not rely on harsh words As lct mentioned, there seems to be a flaw as mine too reverts to iso 200. I think there is a need to fine tune this feature, either by letting the user decide which iso to revert to, or most logically use the last iso reading in auto mode as it must be the most appropriate one (like when shooting at iso 3200 as an extreme case, the camera reverting to iso 200 isn't the most helpful way). After some more thinking, I believe the root of this confusion simply is to mistake the manual shutter-speed selection for a global manual-exposure mode. But when in auto-shutter-speed-and-auto-ISO mode then turning the shutter-speed dial away from "A" is not, repeat: NOT the same as setting the camera into full manual mode. Instead, the camera remains in auto-exposure mode, however with just one parameter for the camera to automatically adjust (ISO) rather than two (shutter speed and ISO). To see the flaw in your logic, simply imagine the ISO setting was not done via menu but via an extra ISO dial which would also include an "A" setting for auto-ISO. Now would you advocate for a feature that magically moves the ISO dial away from "A" whenever the user moves the shutter-speed dial away from"A"? No, you wouldn't. Or consider the Leica X1 or X2. They have two dials on the top, one for aperture, the other for shutter speed, both including an "A". If both are set to "A" then the camera is in full auto mode, adjusting both aperture and shutter speed automatically. Same principle as above, just for a different subset of exposure parameters. Now should the aperture dial magically move away away from "A" every time the user selects a fixed shutter speed? Because "otherwise it's not manual mode"? Of course not, because manual mode is when the user selects fixed values for all exposure parameters, not just one (or two). Auto-ISO is a perfectly valid automatic exposure mode. It must not be disabled just because some persons want a short-cut to full manual mode. If you want full manual mode then don't set ISO to "Auto", as simple as that. If I set ISO to "Auto" then I want it to be auto, as simple as that. Fortunately, this topic is moot now. However I'm still having troubles to believe that Leica Camera really did such a non-photographer's implementation for a vital function in a camera that is the archetype of a photographer's camera just because a few persons asked for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 8, 2014 Share #176 Posted July 8, 2014 So, in the end, it seems most recognize that the function originally put forth in the M240 might be useful for some, but in its current implementation it doesn't really work. The user has to remember the previous ISO, can't view the previous ISO from the ISO screen because, the camera continues to display AUTO where the ISO should be displayed (bug or what ever you want), and the user might as well have just reverted back to manual from the ISO button like they did with the M9. Leica M AUTO ISO MENU choices: A complicated morass of ramifying and confusing menu choices that will cause new users to be befuddled and ask endless forum questions about the functional difference between an elegant choice and a platypus. Leica, please dump this whole mess... WWSD (What would Steve do?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 8, 2014 Share #177 Posted July 8, 2014 After some more thinking, I believe the root of this confusion simply is to mistake the manual shutter-speed selection for a global manual-exposure mode. There is no confusion and no mistake. Manual mode is whatever its designers decide it should be. Originally they had decided it should strictly be a true, honest-to-goodness manual mode with Auto ISO disabled. Now recently they have given in and with its latest firmware the M supports Auto ISO even in manual mode. There is no fact of the matter that anyone could determine, rather a decision that has been made (but could also be revised). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roey Posted July 8, 2014 Share #178 Posted July 8, 2014 There is no confusion and no mistake. Manual mode is whatever its designers decide it should be. Originally they had decided it should strictly be a true, honest-to-goodness manual mode with Auto ISO disabled. Now recently they have given in and with its latest firmware the M supports Auto ISO even in manual mode. There is no fact of the matter that anyone could determine, rather a decision that has been made (but could also be revised). The confusion IMHO stems from the notion that there is a thing like a mode. For me (and others) the M doesn't actually have "modes". It has a number of controls that govern the different variables which determine the behavior of the camera. For me the shutter speed dial is a shutter speed dial -- nothing more, nothing less. For others it does double duty as a mode dial. If you are in the latter camp then, yes, it matters what your definition of "manual mode" is. For me there is no room for interpretation: If I turn the shutter speed from A to 500 it means that I set the shutter speed. Period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 8, 2014 Share #179 Posted July 8, 2014 Michael, where is this "M mode?" I don't seem to have an "M" on my camera in order to select this mode you speak of. It seems to exist only in your head. p.s. Ok, the Movie mode button, but that should be a "V" and that is for another thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 8, 2014 Share #180 Posted July 8, 2014 Michael, where is this "M mode?" I don't seem to have an "M" on my camera in order to select this mode you speak of. It seems to exist only in your head. And in the minds of the engineers of course. Modes exist whether there is a dedicated mode dial or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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