50mm Summicron-M replacement

[Peter Branch]

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For several years now there have been recurrent rumours regarding an aspheric replacement for the 50mm f/2 Summicron-M. This has appeared in officially approved Leica documentation and has several times been referred to by E. Puts including in the most recent addition to his web site. I have, in the past, been told by a number of Leica people that this lens is going to be introduced – but not quite yet.

 

Recently I was told that there was a problem and that the lens had been “abandoned”. The explanation given was that the current lens is perhaps not quite as good as some of the more recently introduced Summicron lenses – 28mm, 75mm & 90mm – but it is still very good and it was proving to be extremely difficult to give the major improvement in performance that customers would expect without increasing the cost to be virtually the same as the new 50mm f/1.4 Summilux-M ASPH. The conclusion was that customers would always buy the f/1.4 if it was the “same” price as an f/2.

 

Assuming that this putative 8 element aspheric 50mm Summicron prototype really does exist and that it would be approximately the same price as the f/1.4 if sold and that it would be the new definitive standard for 50mm, and indeed other focal length lenses, as E. Puts and other have suggested – would any M8 users buy one?

 

I would love to own such a lens in addition to my Noctilux, mainly because of portability and ease of use – but am I an exception and should the revitalised Leica re-establish the 50mm f/2 Summicron as the bench mark against which all other “35mm” lenses are judged?

[adan]

Interestingly, I've just been fooling around with my 50 'cron and the various 75s and 90s, APO and otherwise.

 

Three lenses deliver almost identical looks in terms of contrast and resolution: the 75 APO, the 90 APO - and the 50 non-APO. It is scary how close their fingerprints are - and how different from the 75 and 90s that are contemporary designs with the 50 (c. 1979-80).

 

The only place where the 50 'cron lags the 75/90 APO is near the corners of the frame, at least a part of which is cropped away in the M8. And it's "bokeh" is a bit ratty compared to the longer lenses.

 

In addition the "old" 50 f/2 performs noticably better at .7 meters to 1 meter than the 50 f/1.4 ASPH (the f/1.4 is astonishing at longer distances, though). I wonder if closeup performance for the 50 f/2 ASPH prototype was one of the stumbling blocks?

 

So

a) the 50 'cron, as is, is in fact a very tough target to beat;

it would be horrible if switching to an ASPH design damaged the closeup performance; and

c) Leica does need to maintain a core set of lenses under $1600 for newbies (28 f/2.8 ASPH, 50 'cron, 50 Elmar, 90 Makro)

 

Finally, there is the sanity factor. Paying 8x more for a Leica 21 over a Nikon 20mm is barely rational, but understandable in terms of build and Rf capability and such.

 

However, a Nikkor 50 f/1.8 is $105 at B&H - and paying 24x that price for what is, basically, a starter lens is too much. After all, 50 f/2 was the "kit" lens every college kid got on their Nikkormat or Pentax Spotmatic.

 

If one were offered, say, a SmartCar "ForTwo" that had been tweaked and adjusted to be the BEST SMARTCAR IN THE W-O-ORLD and thus set the standard - but cost 24x the base price, or $360,000 (Euro200,000, Pounds150,000) in order to meet that mark...???

[rosuna]

Adan,

 

your analysis is very accurate. The new 50mm Summicron would make sense only if it brings some improvement in size, price or performance. Maybe an aespheric element would allow a smaller lens (just like a pancake). Production cost should be low, so the lens must be simple (no floating lens groups). Performance can be visibly improved only at the wider aperture and on the field and at the corners.

 

It is not a technical question, it is a maketing question! What kind of lens would make sense? A little brother of the current Summilux or a simpler and smaller sucessor of the current Cron? I think Leica can do any of those alternatives. Technically, they can do it, but firstly they must decide what to do. The third option is to keep the current Summicron. Is it selling well?

[misha]

what do you think of the last pre-asph 50mm lux?

[dfarkas]

I have been on a major 50 cron kick recently. I find it to be a great casual portrait lens to shoot my daughter with. Super easy to focus, easy to get tight cropping for little babies, and the look is just wonderful, especially wide open. I agree that this lens lacks the bokeh of the 90 APO (which I also love), but the 50 is still respectable and quite smooth in its transition from sharp to oof.

 

Okay, the truth is I just wanted to show off pictures of my daughter Sophia.

 

Enjoy.

 

David

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[thrid]

Is there really a need for an 2/50 Summicron ASPH? Especially one that would cost considerably more than the current model?

 

Words like ASPH and APO get tossed around like they are some magic bullet, when in reality these techniques are not appropriate for all optical problems.

 

The current generation 2/50 Summicron is an extremely capable lens. As it stands the only two lenses that can approach it's performance are the new 50 Summilux-R and Summilux-ASPH and these cost 2 to 3 times as much.

 

From most reports the only area where it is bested is in close-up performance, because the Lux-M ASPH has a floating element.

 

If anything Leica should redesign the interior of the barrel to eliminate the occasional reflection problem that plagues the current version under rare lighting circumstances.

[Peter Branch]

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Several of the responses to my questions make interesting and relevant points. Clearly Leica has hesitated about this lens – the references to it go back a number of years – and may indeed, as I have been told, have abandoned any idea of marketing it.

 

However there is another marketing principle at stake here which concerns the creation of an “Opportunity Gap”. If it is possible to produce a better lens – one which has better overall coverage of the image area, reduced flair and better MTF at full aperture, and it seems that it is – then either someone else will produce it or – as we are witnessing – someone else will exploit the technology to produce a lens of similar performance to the current lens at far lower cost. That is the way the technology market works.

 

I agree totally that if the performance of the f/1.4 cannot be bettered then an f/2 at a similar price is never going to be a sensible marketing option. But again the information we have from people like E. Puts, who has apparently tested the prototype is that it really is “better” than the f/1.4. This being “better” argument becomes more significant with the advent of the M8 as this camera makes it much easier for the typical user to exploit and benefit from enhanced performance in ways that were only possible with film under laboratory conditions.

 

The 50mm focal length, currently served by 5 different lens offerings from Leica, would seem to be over represented in the range now that the M8 has defined the future of the M range. In this new set of circumstances the 50mm, along with the 75mm are, to my mind, the first choice for “people” pictures but they are no longer the universal / general purpose lenses in the way the 50mm was with film. If Leica needs a low cost “entry” lens, like the 50mm f/2.8 used to be, then they need a low cost 35mm lens to compliment the new 28mm f/2.8 not, I suggest, a low cost 50mm f/2.

[frc]

The cron 50 as it is doesn't give me any reason to look for anything "better", neither a Cron or Lux asph.

[wizard]

Assuming that this putative 8 element aspheric 50mm Summicron prototype really does exist ...

 

If Leica came up with a new 50mm Summicron, I'd be surprised if it had 8 lens elements. That just would not make any sense to me. The current lens, which has proven to be exceptionally good, uses 6 lens elements, none of which is aspheric. If considered necessary, it should be possible to improve upon the current design by using e.g. one or two aspheric surfaces while still keeping the number of elements at six. Only then would such a new lens be economically viable. With 8 elements, production costs would almost inevitably equal the current Summilux.

 

Andy

[masjah]

The design constraints on a 50 are a bit eased compared with a 35 or a 90 (though for different reasons in each case!). If they can do a superlative 90/2 Apo Asph with 5 elements, they shouldn't need 8 for a 50! More likely it is indeed that the current "conventionally designed and constructed" 50/2 is really very good at a relatively economical price.

[twom4]

David,

 

She is a beautiful baby with photos taken with a wonderful lens.

[luigi bertolotti]

I like a lot this kind of thread, which allows we leicaphiles to give freewheeling imagination to our beloved lenses... just to add something mine :

 

True, a to-be Cron 50 asph must :

- cost less than Lux, significantly

- be significantly lighter than Lux

- perform undoubtly better than current Cron and "marginally" better than Lux (let us do these supersubtle considerations to Erwin...).

 

To achieve ALL the 3 goals is very difficult, but if they are not achieved... marketing and tech mistake... to be avoided.

 

But 50 has modified its perception with the M8... and I think that film users are so happy with their "heritage" lenses (me included) so, maybe...

... a 50 Cron Asph could be THE FIRST lens "M8 only" ! Very tiny, even pancake styled, not too costly... is this a stupid idea ?

[Peter Branch]

If Leica came up with a new 50mm Summicron, I'd be surprised if it had 8 lens elements. That just would not make any sense to me. The current lens, which has proven to be exceptionally good, uses 6 lens elements, none of which is aspheric. If considered necessary, it should be possible to improve upon the current design by using e.g. one or two aspheric surfaces while still keeping the number of elements at six. Only then would such a new lens be economically viable. With 8 elements, production costs would almost inevitably equal the current Summilux.

 

Andy

 

The information in the public domain consistently reports the "replacement" 50mm f/2 Summicron prototype as having 8 elements, after all the fabulous 28mm f/2 Summicron has 9, so 8 is not too way out. What does seem to be less certain is the designation ASPH though it is difficult to see Leica introducing a lens of this type without it being ASPH as that has become one of their core technologies for the M range. I have never seen any reference to APO.

 

It still interests me as to whether with the M8, which enables people to easily exploit and see the advantages of the very high quality recent lenses, there is a demand for a "super" lens with this focal length. If Leica were to introduce a "super" 35mm lens specifically to exploit the M8's capabilities I would more easily understand. There is undoubtedly a part of Leica's customer base which would buy any lens that everyone agreed had the finest image quality available anywhere almost regardless of its specification.

 

My own view is that if the M8 continues to be a commercial success then Leica will almost have to think about wide angle lenses to cover only the 18 X 27 mm format. It is the only way they can get the 24mm f/2 etc that will be required. I won't worry about this one bit; film is effectively dead and for those who absolutely insist on continuing to use it there are tens of thousands of existing lenses which will keep them supplied for ever and, most importantly, as film cannot exploit the image capability of the current lenses anyway, except under quite artificial conditions, they are more than adequate.

[hektor]

Adan,

It is not a technical question, it is a maketing question! What kind of lens would make sense? A little brother of the current Summilux or a simpler and smaller sucessor of the current Cron? I think Leica can do any of those alternatives. Technically, they can do it, but firstly they must decide what to do. The third option is to keep the current Summicron. Is it selling well?

 

Erwin Puts:

 

A lens that could become the masterpiece of the digital age is a proposed eight element Summicron lens, that exists on the drawing table only and should deliver stunning performance.

 

http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c034.html

[adan]

Well, the reference that I saw to an ASPH 'cron was in LFI's review of the current 50mm lenses last summer (they only list 4, BTW - but I guess you were counting the Tri-Elmar at 50, which they did not).

 

They said that a 50 f/2 ASPH was designed as long ago as the early to mid 90s, and was determined even then to be too pricey - but that the design innovations were adopted for the 50 ASPH and 75 APO/ASPH. Basically the innovation was that 'stack' of elements behind the diaphagm that contain the aspheric element and also 'float' for better closeup performance.

 

That article also pointed out that ONE element in the 50 f/1.4 ASPH costs more than all the other elements combined, due to the glass formulation. So it is not all that easy to "bean-count" the number of elements and use that as a measure of a lens' cost.

 

I do take the point about a 35 now being the "50" for the digital age, and that perhaps an inexpensive 35 f/2 would be a better starter lens, allowing the 50 to become more exotic in specs and price. That is what the new 28 Elmarit ASPH does for those of us who prefer a wider "normal".

[dfarkas]

The "old" 50 Cron is quite nice as it is. The R&D and tooling has all been paid for long ago. Very rarely do I see anyone get a 50 Cron as a the first and only lens to go with their new M8. I have seen quite a few walk out my door with either the 28 Elmarit or the 35 Cron in hand, though.

 

I forsee a 35 Elmarit ASPH (priced at the same level as the new 28 Elmarit ASPH) as a possible new lens introduction. For me, the 35 Cron ASPH is already incredibly small, light, and easy to focus, but I could see an inexspensive "kit" lens to go with the M8 for people just getting in to the M system. This makes more sense than a 50 Cron ASPH.

 

So, my vote is no 50 Cron ASPH in the near future. But what do I know.... I generally leave the lens designing to Leica (they're pretty good at it, I've heard).

 

David

[wizard]

The information in the public domain consistently reports the "replacement" 50mm f/2 Summicron prototype as having 8 elements, after all the fabulous 28mm f/2 Summicron has 9, so 8 is not too way out.

 

Peter, I do not doubt the information on the prototype "replacement" 50mm f/2 Summicron, but the fact that it isn't on the market proves my point to some extent: An f2/50mm lens with high quality can be done with 5 lens elements (witness the CV Heliar 2/50), most f2/50mm lenses have 6 lens elements, and some, mostly older designs (cf. first and second version Summicrons) employ 7 lens elements, but I have not come across an f2/50mm design having 8 elements. While Adan's point re glass costs is true, it is also true that 8 lens elements will be more expensive to grind, polish, coat and assemble than 6 elements. In the end there has to be a significant price differential between an excellent f2/50 and an equally excellent f1.4/50, as if it is not there, people will go for the 1.4

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

[Peter Branch]

I suggest that where we have ended up with this discussion is that Leica will probably not market a replacement 50mm f/2 for a whole range of reasons. This tends to confirm what I have been told – that the project has been "abandoned".

 

A small high quality 50mm would be a very useful addition to my kit of lenses and perhaps the answer is the 50mm f/1.4 ASPH but I can't help thinking that it is too similar to my Noctilux which, by the way, I would certainly not buy today to use on an M8. It's a relic from the age of film, but I’m reluctant to sell it.

 

Regarding the 35mm focal length there is almost certainly be a place for an entry level f/2.8, c.f. the 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M ASPH. This raises the interesting question of upgrading the f/2 which, if we are honest with ourselves, is not a benchmark lens in the range – good though it is, it is not the equal of the other more modern Summicrons, even when used with the reduced image area of the M8.

[lars_bergquist]

-----------

In the end there has to be a significant price differential between an excellent f2/50 and an equally excellent f1.4/50, as if it is not there, people will go for the 1.4

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

 

I do agree. It is known that Leica have made preliminary studies on a new 50 mm f:2 which would have had an astounding performance, but the verdict was that manufacturing costs would have been too high. Instead, some of the solutions found their way into the current Summilux ASPH.

 

I also agree that the 50 mm lineup will have to be culled. I can already smell discontinuation around the Noctilux; in fact I doubt that more than two lenses can be economically justified in any focal length. (Fanciers of the 50 mm Elmar-M take note – also, this is today the real inexpensive entry-level lens, apart from the length). There are too many 90 mm lenses too, and one of them is getting a bit long of tooth.

 

This, and the situation at the wide angle end, must be what's on the Leica mind just now. They must know that unless they present a prime 16 mm lens of reasonable size and weight, coded and filter-capable, somebody else will (guess who). I doubt however that a faster 24 will be on the agenda. I know that there are people who would buy anything Leica offered, but what is it good for? Which would be the sensible next-longer focal length? 35 mm? Too little difference. 50 mm? A distinct speciality lens today. Anyone who already owns a 35 or a 28 will want 16 mm. Well, possibly 18 mm.

 

The weakness of the current 50 mm Summicron is its sensitivity to flare. This is what made me sell it and buy a Summilux ASPH, not the speed increase. Prospective buyers will likely not understand that however. They will demand more MTF percent, which is far less important in practical picture-taking. So I do not se a new 'cron very soon.

 

The old man from the Age of Anastigmat Lenses

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[rosuna]

The Leica M9 will be full frame. Leica cannot design their M lens line depending on the actual M8's sensor size.

 

The 50mm focal length is not too different on the M8, but it is true: too many 50mm lenses in the catalogue and an odd 67mm FoV. The only reasonable replacement for the current Summicron would be a cheaper, smaller, slightly better performer Summicron ASPH. This lens should replace the current Summicron and the collapsible Elmarit. But it is not in Leica's list of priorities.

 

I don't know how many prototypes of Summicrons ASPH exist. The first one I had notice of was the 1989 prototype designed by Peter Karbe, actual chief of the optical department at Leica (Is it right?), using ASPH and multilayer elements. I suppose the current Summilux 50mm is a simplification of these designs. A f/2 lens as expensive and big as the current Summilux has not economic sense.

 

The problem with the M system is the necessity of compact lenses. The advantage is the possibility of avoiding retrofocus designs in many wide-angles. I think the current Elmarit 24mm is a retrofocus-based design. A new Summicron 24mm would be much bigger and/or expensive. It is very difficult to design equivalent lenses for two different formats, replicating the lens line for the M8.

 

Leica will not design lenses for the x1.33 sensor, nor will "fill" all the gaps (it cannot be done). The current 35mm Summicron is a great kit lens for the M8, and a Elmarit 35mm pancake lens is likely (small size and reasonable price would be the only real value added of such a lens for the M line). However, this will put three 35mm lenses on the table. And the R line will get a lot of attention and resources the next year.