jcraf Posted June 13, 2014 Share #1 Posted June 13, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Today, on a lovely sunny morning in London, I took my recently acquired low mileage M9, along with my MM, to Leica Mayfair for a sensor clean. I've used this service before, for M240 and MM (but not M9) and it's great, especially as it's free of charge. Had a nice cappuccino while I waited for the Tech to do his stuff, and a little chat with a few other MM owners who were attending a MM workshop. Then it all went downhill. The Tech emerged from his lab to tell me that whilst he was cleaning the M9, the entire IR filter just lifted off the surface of the sensor. He showed me the offending filter which was sitting askew on the sensor. He said that in years of cleaning M9-series cameras he had never, ever, seen this. Cracking yes, this, no. So it's been sent to Wetzlar for a 'goodwill' repair and presumably a new sensor. The camera was last in Germany in March 2014 for a CCD remap, before I bought it. It has only 4000 actuations (as if that's relevant) and is in otherwise immaculate condition. I have never touched the sensor myself. Obviously I am relieved that this happened whist a Leica Tech was handling the camera, and not me! I am told that it is 'exceedingly unlikely' I will pay for the repair. I should think so too! I made sure the very helpful tech annotated the repair docket to reflect that this occurred whilst the camera was being cleaned by Leica. Interesting that this was a new scenario for the Mayfair Tech. Look forward to seeing the camera again in 2-3 months Friday the 13th indeed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 Hi jcraf, Take a look here Friday the 13th. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
A miller Posted June 13, 2014 Share #2 Posted June 13, 2014 Hi John - This is a total nightmare. Very sorry to hear this. This is why the Leica used gear market is riddled with pitfalls. There is a whole host of things that could be wrong with an M body, whether film or digital. And recourse back to the seller is extremely limited, even with ebay which is a buyer's market but only within a certain time frame. Film bodies could have light leaks and inaccurate shutter speeds that may not be noticed for a long time, or even ever. They also could have non-genuine parts, such as taking an advance shutter spring from an M6 and installing it on an M3. For digital, the list of potential hidden problems is even longer, in addition to the above, the sensor could have cracks or scratches, even miniscule beyond the eye of a normal inspection but could grow on your watch. There could be condensation build up inside the camera that isn't a problem now but could have seeds of mold that will blossom at some point on your watch. The shutter count could have been reset using secret codes that we have seen roam on this forum. The rangefinder could be out of alignment, which you may not even notice until it's to late. The list goes on and on. And the repair of any one of these problems on an out-of-warranty basis could make the purchase non-economic in the first place. A cuationary tale for sure. Thanks very much for sharing and let's thank the heavens that Leica stepped in and saved the day. And if it will make you feel any better, I just rec'd my "new" 75mm lux from Leica yesterday after waiting 6 weeks, and I haven't even used it yet b/c the reason I had to send it in is that, upon purchasing it from a US retailer, I immediately determined that the focus was materially out of alignment. How dirty was the sensor? Have you gone back to to seller and asked for a partial refund in respect of the inconvenience of having to wait 2-3 months? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 13, 2014 Share #3 Posted June 13, 2014 He said that in years of cleaning M9-series cameras he had never, ever, seen this. Cracking yes, this, no. Similar to Thorsten's MM experience explained in this recent article (scroll down to section on sensor change). He, too, was just sending the camera in for cleaning (directly to Leica in his case). As he notes, the M9 and MM have had some issues with the sensor coating either cracking or peeling off. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40mm f/2 Posted June 16, 2014 Share #4 Posted June 16, 2014 I guess I have the same problem now. I had some persistent spots on my M9 sensor which did not get removed by my normal cleaning with the Pentax sensor cleaning kit and tried to clean it with green clean wet/dry sensor swabs. It only got much worse so that iI can not use that camera. I inspected the sensor with my stereo microscope and saw that the coating of the sensor cover glass is peeling off. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/228794-friday-the-13th/?do=findComment&comment=2611544'>More sharing options...
bernd_muc Posted June 16, 2014 Share #5 Posted June 16, 2014 I inspected the sensor with my stereo microscope and saw that the coating of the sensor cover glass is peeling off.That looks more like a strand of "Leica DNA" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40mm f/2 Posted June 16, 2014 Share #6 Posted June 16, 2014 That looks more like a strand of "Leica DNA" Somewhat funny except I can not use that camera for my trip tomorrow. For my diploma thesis I did a lot of DNA spreads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted June 16, 2014 Share #7 Posted June 16, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Tech emerged from his lab to tell me that whilst he was cleaning the M9, the entire IR filter just lifted off the surface of the sensor. He showed me the offending filter which was sitting askew on the sensor. He said that in years of cleaning M9-series cameras he had never, ever, seen this. Cracking yes, this, no. "Lifted off" suggests that the Leica tech was using a sticky lollipop of the type that is seen on video in use at Solms, and which in the past several people on this forum have criticised as a risky method of cleaning a sensor. Perhaps this kind of thing happens all the time at Solms, but when it does, the sensor is quietly exchanged and no one is the wiser. So, speculative as it is, the lesson here is to stay away from lollipops, if you clean your own sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted June 16, 2014 Share #8 Posted June 16, 2014 Wow! I have never read a thread with such forecast of doom and destruction - all based speculation! To John, the O.P., I say this. Your camera WILL come back in pristine and useable condition. I venture to say it will include a new sensor as well as it is not practical to just replace the cover glass. I will be extremely surprised if you asked for any money whatsoever. The worst side of the problem is the time you will spend without your camera but as you are in the UK, that will be pretty fast too, I believe. Subsequent posters to you, one in particular, warrants total ignoring as it it is total rubbish, based on rumour fear of the dark and whatever. Jeesh, I can't believe what I read sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted June 16, 2014 "Lifted off" suggests that the Leica tech was using a sticky lollipop of the type that is seen on video in use at Solms, and which in the past several people on this forum have criticised as a risky method of cleaning a sensor. Perhaps this kind of thing happens all the time at Solms, but when it does, the sensor is quietly exchanged and no one is the wiser. So, speculative as it is, the lesson here is to stay away from lollipops, if you clean your own sensor. Yep, a lollipop it was. He even showed me the said implement lifting off the (now loosened) filter. To be fair, though, he said it had never happened before.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share #10 Posted June 16, 2014 Wow! I have never read a thread with such forecast of doom and destruction - all based speculation! To John, the O.P., I say this. Your camera WILL come back in pristine and useable condition. I venture to say it will include a new sensor as well as it is not practical to just replace the cover glass. I will be extremely surprised if you asked for any money whatsoever. The worst side of the problem is the time you will spend without your camera but as you are in the UK, that will be pretty fast too, I believe. Subsequent posters to you, one in particular, warrants total ignoring as it it is total rubbish, based on rumour fear of the dark and whatever. Jeesh, I can't believe what I read sometimes. Erl, thanks for that. I am sure you're right, especially as it happened whilst a Leica tech was cleaning it. Luckily I am a Monochrom shooter almost all of the time. But this might even encourage me to shoot some colour with my MP or M2 whilst the M9 is in hospital.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2014 Share #11 Posted June 16, 2014 and which in the past several people on this forum have criticised as a risky method of cleaning a sensor. But for a totally different reason and a totally different stamping tool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted June 16, 2014 Share #12 Posted June 16, 2014 But for a totally different reason and a totally different stamping tool. My memory fails me: could you be clearer please, jaap? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2014 Share #13 Posted June 16, 2014 Yep. It was the Dust-Aid tool and the problem was that the adhesive from the cleaning sticky tape stuck to the pad and bonded unremovably to the sensor cover glass. I now use the Eye-lead lollipop and can really recommend it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted June 16, 2014 Share #14 Posted June 16, 2014 I can see the advantage in terms of speed: sometimes a wet wipe just moves stuff around, instead of picking it up. But on the whole it seems to me that any adhesive method, which lifts things up, runs similar risks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2014 Share #15 Posted June 16, 2014 It is the only way I can get my Monochrom sensor spotless.. So the M240 and M9 get washed in the same tub. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 16, 2014 Share #16 Posted June 16, 2014 Subsequent posters to you, one in particular, warrants total ignoring as it it is total rubbish, based on rumour fear of the dark and whatever. Jeesh, I can't believe what I read sometimes. Have some posts been removed? I can't find that comment. However the thread should be balanced by pointing out these sorts of things are rare accidents and it shouldn't stop people cleaning their sensor by approved methods. I would hazard a guess that somebody doing it themselves is going to be more careful than a techie that does it all day every day even if they don't get it done as quickly. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted June 16, 2014 Share #17 Posted June 16, 2014 Really sorry to read this John but I'm happy the damage was discovered by the Leica tech himself. I hope your M9 returns swiftly and in tip-top shape. This thread made me wonder, though - would it be possible for Leica to include a sensor cleaning function in their current digital M bodies or would the digital M, as it exists today in the M9-based and M240-based bodies, have to be considerably redesigned for that to happen? cheers Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 16, 2014 Share #18 Posted June 16, 2014 Sensor cleaning on cheaper camera's is done very effectively with a vibrating flexible screen in front of the actual sensor, this shakes dust off to be collected by a sticky strip under the sensor. With my Olympus E3 and EM5 I have never seen any dust at all on the images. It would be a total re-engineering job for Leica though and they would most likely have to buy in the technology. It does also get more difficult the larger the sensor. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 16, 2014 Share #19 Posted June 16, 2014 Sensor cleaning on cheaper camera's is done very effectively with a vibrating flexible screen in front of the actual sensor, this shakes dust off to be collected by a sticky strip under the sensor. With my Olympus E3 and EM5 I have never seen any dust at all on the images. It would be a total re-engineering job for Leica though and they would most likely have to buy in the technology. It does also get more difficult the larger the sensor. Steve That same system was experimented with on a full frame sensor and didn't work out too well. It added too much bulk, heat, and wasn't as effective as on a smaller sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiver Posted June 17, 2014 Share #20 Posted June 17, 2014 Yep. It was the Dust-Aid tool and the problem was that the adhesive from the cleaning sticky tape stuck to the pad and bonded unremovably to the sensor cover glass. I now use the Eye-lead lollipop and can really recommend it. Based on reviews and the recommendation of a camera shop that does its own sensor cleaning, I bought a Dust-Aid set. At first it worked perfectly and as promised. But the problem came some months down the track when the adhesive that stuck the pad to the probe came free, and the sticky pad was still on my M9 sensor! Thank goodness I was able to pry it off without damaging the sensor - I was momentarily worried that the whole thing would pop out of the camera if I applied too much force. Now I use a simple wet-clean system that is fine. Thank goodness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.