Does it make sense to buy a m240 now prior to photokina?

[jaques]

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Zeiss and Cosina already have a range of M mount lenses 'the same as Leica'. They already designed them. Konica made some stunning ones that cost a fraction of their Leica counterparts... Nikon and Canon made some pretty amazing LTM RF lenses too.

 

and many customers for this proposed new DRF camera (those like me) probably wont be needing any new lenses anyhow. I use Leica M240 but have never put a modern Leica lens on it and probably never will. I can bring myself to pay for new Voigtlander glass but new Leica glass is way to expensive. I don't care how good it is: it's no where near as much fun- or as good an investment- as buying vintage glass- which is good enough for me image-wise as well ;-).

 

Come to think of it- if such a hypothetical manufacturer were to produce a new line of (affordable) M mount glass: I believe they would have a healthy little market for those lenses too! Cosina don't seem to be giving up on M lenses and regularly come out with new products.

[lct]

Problem is not lenses but red edges and soft corners with the latters. Only Leica is capable to avoid them, to some extent, thanks to a special full frame sensor and a 6-bit coding system that nobody else is offering so far. Zeiss or Cosina could perhaps do the same but it would cost them a lot. The APS-C Epson R-D1 was sold for 3.000 euro in 2004 and had soft corners with 28mm and wider lenses. Its full frame version would be impossible to sell with the same flaws ten years later.

[CaptZoom]

I wonder what size Sony's FF NEX lenses would be if they didn't have the AF motor and/or stabilizer.

[jdlaing]

I wonder what size Sony's FF NEX lenses would be if they didn't have the AF motor and/or stabilizer.

 

It's academic. They will always have those features.

[CaptZoom]

It's academic. They will always have those features.

 

 

I didn't ask whether or they would do it but rather the size of the lens sans AF and/or stabilizer. And my guess is that they'll still be larger than RF lenses, but how much larger given software correction is now a tool used in lens design.

[mjh]

It seems odd to me that no other manufacturer would ever do what Leica does- as if only Leica could make such a venture profitable.

But that’s exactly how it is. And incidentally you have already given the reason why only Leica can make a profitable business out of digital rangefinder cameras: Because only Leica can ask for the prices required to render this profitable.

 

Furthermore it also seems to me that in Japan there is a great love of the golden years of photography, of retro design, and cameras as essentially 'fetishistic' items.

That is all about the design. You can get all kinds of cameras that look almost like a rangefinder. That’s fine for those who are after a certain retro chic, but not so much for those who are into actual rangefinder photography.

[nicolaz]

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Hello Jay

 

M bodies don't depreciate as much as other brand bodies. The M8 and M8.2 still cost a fortune compare to what we have on the market right now for the same money (talking about technology). M9 and M9-P still cost a lot of money too. Leica discontinued the M9 however they came up with the ME and they positioned the CCD sensor as a different (and not old) camera compared to the M240. Maybe that's the reason why they are still strong on the second hand market.

 

A new M240P will probably have different effect. At that point the M240 will be probably a real old model.

 

If I'm not wrong photokina will be in September and I guess the new camera (I'm not confident there will be any) will be available next year.

 

I don't like the way Leica address customer requests (they basically don't) but this is another story.. I'm actually thinking a lot about the x100s and a7s (I'll probably rent them and give them a try) but if you want to be with Leica, if I was you, I'd buy a second hand M240 right away and I'd keep the rest of the money for another nice lens (which keep it's value unless it increases it)

 

Nicola

[Olsen]

There is a scene from Henrik Ibsen's serious play 'The Wild Duck' from 1885 (- with among the famous sentence: 'If you take the delusion from a man; you take away his meaning of life'), where day dreamer Hjalmar Ekdal comes out of his home office for dinner. His wife ask 'how the day has been?' - He answers that it is 'so difficult to invent something new when everything have been invented before...' - It is the only place where the audience laugh - heartedly- in this sad play.

 

I hope a few here don't lose the meaning with their lives when I say that: Leica will have to come up with a 'new' M. Just to stay alive.

 

Leica is a small company with limited resources in all sectors of their operation. They have to launch products in an even stream that limited production, sales and distribution resources can follow up. Leica has just launched the T-series. Now their sales department need time to get it launched and move the T-products. This means: We will not see a new M at the coming Photokina.

 

If there is a Leica camera that needs an up-date it is the S2. Rumours talk of a 'new' S2. Is that the 'new S2' that is now presented at the Leica web pages? Rumours talk of a video capable S2. - If it is 'new' why call it S2? This 'simplified branding' that Leica has picked up from brand specialist is impractical. If it is 'new' or 'modified' or just 'better'; tell the market. Like S3 - or S2v or whatever. It is impossible for the market to pick up 'that it is new, different, better etc. Brand it something different!

 

Audi has adopted the same 'simple' brand system: Now the engine is called TFSI - regardless if it has 225 HP in the A4, 208 HP in A7 etc. By this they are misleading and confusing the market. It has become a 'German commercial disease'. Not good.

 

There is plenty of room for improvement of the M (240 - æhum: M10). Like introducing a wifi connection. I hardly use my M9 anymore. Most of (!) my pictures I take with my IPhone for sharing on Facebook etc. A lot of fun, really. All camera producers will have to meet this challenge. Or they are not longer needed. At least not in the volumes they are used to.

 

Can we get a M11 with - absolutely no - Italian flag and one more click stop ISO sensitivity? I am more for that than 35 million pixels. Before that Leica should launch a M (240 - puh!) a la carte. It's about high time!

[mjh]

Leica is a small company with limited resources in all sectors of their operation. They have to launch products in an even stream that limited production, sales and distribution resources can follow up. Leica has just launched the T-series. Now their sales department need time to get it launched and move the T-products. This means: We will not see a new M at the coming Photokina.

Probably we won’t but that doesn’t mean Leica wouldn’t introduce new products at photokina. The M, less than two years into its life cycle, isn’t due for replacement just yet.

 

If there is a Leica camera that needs an up-date it is the S2. Rumours talk of a 'new' S2.

Actually the S2 was replaced by the S (Typ 006) introduced at the previous photokina, so the current S is the S3, so to speak.

 

Rumours talk of a video capable S2.

Everyone in the MF market is switching from CCD to CMOS at the moment and it would be a big surprise if Leica didn’t have something up their sleeve. We will have to wait and see what that will be, an ‘S4’ or something else. (Of course any new S would be called ‘S (Typ whatever)’.)

[jaques]

But that’s exactly how it is. And incidentally you have already given the reason why only Leica can make a profitable business out of digital rangefinder cameras: Because only Leica can ask for the prices required to render this profitable.

 

 

I don't understand where you get the economic certainty from. I do not buy into the idea that there is something intrinsically expensive or difficult in making an optical RF. Just look at the Bessa camera: they are not that expensive. A digital camera could use the same mechanical RF.

 

 

That is all about the design. You can get all kinds of cameras that look almost like a rangefinder. That’s fine for those who are after a certain retro chic, but not so much for those who are into actual rangefinder photography.

 

It is not just 'all about the design': or rather it is about the design but functionality is a fundametal aspect of design. I don't buy the dismissive idea that people are only after surface 'retro chic'. Sure some are- but others-just like us M users- are after form and function. Just look at how the Nikon Df DSLR has been reviewed... people were desperate for it to replicate a vintage manual SLR- but it didn't manage it. Yet it moves in the right direction... as do many other cameras.

 

despite your certitude I remain an optimist: I think on this forum alone there would be hundreds of users who would be very intere$ted if any Japanese manufacturer were to offer a digital RF camera: not just something that looks like one.

 

Another point: I would guess that the largest group of people in the World today who are into 'actual rangefinder photography' would probably be found in Asia- and they are often using vintage Asian made film RF cameras, and many of them are young people. If there is a future for the rangefinder camera: it probably lies with them if anywhere.

[Exodies]

If you want to torment yourself by delaying buying an M, I have a suggestion which may increase the perverse thrill - don't wait till after Photokina, a fixed time when the torture stops; wait till after the firmware update - an unknowable distant future date. You can squirm in anticipation right up to the last moment. There will be no relief "oh, only another month to go".

It will be just as if the torture never stops.

[Paulus]

As the m is already close to 2 years on the market ... Does it still make sense to buy one now or is something interesting rumored for the photokina (i.e. A 240 monochrome or a 36mp m)?

 

My old d5 version 1 just broke down and I am down to 1 camera, a samsung nx 300 mirrorless ... The leica bug got to me last year and I am lusting after one (but as I am no pro it is more lust than necessity).

 

Any words of wisdom ... Advice appreciated.

 

Jay.

 

Jay,

 

buy it, when you have tried it and you really like it. It's a great camera in my opinion. The next one will be great also. I have once made the mistake saying that my m9 would be my last camera, because it was good enough for me, but I will never make that mistake again, I think.

I really enjoyed the M9 but I really enjoy the M 240 also.

 

But if you do not really like the camera, than don't buy it. It's as simple as that. of course you can wait another year or so. I'm waiting for the Oled television for 25 years now, still looking at my 25 year old television...