AceVentura1986 Posted May 6, 2014 Share #1 Posted May 6, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello all, First, I do not own an M240. I own an M8 and ME and have recently found a stuck pixel column on my M8. I have always been puzzled by these. I have shot digital since 2000, mostly with Canon gear, and have never experienced a stuck pixel column with any other camera. I have experienced individual stuck pixels with all of them, something that is easily remedied in Lightroom, but never an entire column. I frankly don't understand why one pixel would affect an entire column, but it is what it is. My question is this: Does the M240 suffer from stuck columns as well? I ask because the problem might be a CCD versus CMOS issue as nearly all my Canon cameras except one are or have been CMOS cameras and all Leica CCD cameras, including the MM, are prone to stuck columns. If it is an issue that is avoided with CMOS, then I will ultimately upgrade to an M240 at some time. If not, well, I think this might be where Leica and I part company. Thanks in advance, RV Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 Hi AceVentura1986, Take a look here Stuck Pixel Column on M240?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted May 6, 2014 Share #2 Posted May 6, 2014 That’s the difference between CCD and CMOS sensors: CMOS pixels are read out individually (they are addressed much like the memory cells in a RAM chip) while CCD pixels are read out in a bucket brigade fashion – each pixel in a column transfers its electric charge to the pixel below it, then the read out pixels in the bottom row pass their charges to the left or right (depending on whether the pixel is in the left or right half of the sensor) until the whole row of pixels is read out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 6, 2014 Share #3 Posted May 6, 2014 Any sensor can suffer from stuck/dead pixel defects as it is not caused by the sensor, but by cosmic radiation damage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceVentura1986 Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted May 7, 2014 Any sensor can suffer from stuck/dead pixel defects as it is not caused by the sensor, but by cosmic radiation damage. Yes, but my concern is not individual pixels as they are easily dealt with in Lightroom. My concern is stuck columns, which if Michael's post above is correct, this is an issue with CCDs, because of the way they readout. I've owned four Canon DSLRs and have never encountered a stuck column so I'm inclined to think it doesn't affect CMOS. If it's not an issue w the M240, then I probably will stay w Leica as I truly love the rangefinders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bideford Posted May 7, 2014 Share #5 Posted May 7, 2014 I had to send my M back to Solms for a stuck pixel column - it was during the move so it was actually returned to me from Wetzlar. Clearly my camera is now a collectors item with such proof of transport documentation..... It was not as apparent as the one I had with my M8.2 - it could only be seen with long exposures (using an ND3.0 filter). And just to show you what a stuck pixel magnet I am, I had to return my first Plustek 8100 negative scanner for the same reason! Film is so much less trouble sometimes...... James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceVentura1986 Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share #6 Posted May 7, 2014 James, was your M a 240 or an M9? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 8, 2014 Share #7 Posted May 8, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I had to send my M back to Solms for a stuck pixel column - it was during the move so it was actually returned to me from Wetzlar. Clearly my camera is now a collectors item with such proof of transport documentation..... It was not as apparent as the one I had with my M8.2 - it could only be seen with long exposures (using an ND3.0 filter). And just to show you what a stuck pixel magnet I am, I had to return my first Plustek 8100 negative scanner for the same reason! Film is so much less trouble sometimes...... James Dust, fingerprints and tramlines… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bideford Posted May 11, 2014 Share #8 Posted May 11, 2014 Dust, fingerprints and tramlines… Yes jaapv but "Dust, fingerprints (not an issue for me) and tramlines" are a variable nuisance. Once you have a dead pixel (and line) only an expensive trip back to Leica will resolve. And for every image thereafter..... Don't get me wrong - I am a digital convert - but as they say, film provides for a "new sensor every time". James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted May 12, 2014 Share #9 Posted May 12, 2014 We have seen on this forum several cases of M 240 stuck pixel columns, and I know a couple of guys on another forum. Seems to be more frequent than the M9 with its CCD so I think it's just a manufacturing issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrh68uk Posted May 12, 2014 Share #10 Posted May 12, 2014 So, we have No, CMOS technology doesn't result in column defects when a pixel is stuck and Yes, the M Typ 240 can and has been shown to have column defects. Clearly, they exist and so my follow-on question would be: despite the fact that the sensor is CMOS rather than CCD, can a single stuck pixel produce a column defect? I had a single stuck pixel on my M8 which resulted in a column. I have several stuck pixels on my Nikon D3x and that's all they are, so very easy to manage or ignore. I didn't have any defects at all with my M9 before I sold it for the M. If, or when, I get a stuck pixel on the M I shall probably ignore it - but if it results in a column defect then that's different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 12, 2014 Share #11 Posted May 12, 2014 Yes. But less likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted May 12, 2014 Share #12 Posted May 12, 2014 So, we have No, CMOS technology doesn't result in column defects when a pixel is stuck and Yes, the M Typ 240 can and has been shown to have column defects. Clearly, they exist and so my follow-on question would be: despite the fact that the sensor is CMOS rather than CCD, can a single stuck pixel produce a column defect? I had a single stuck pixel on my M8 which resulted in a column. I have several stuck pixels on my Nikon D3x and that's all they are, so very easy to manage or ignore. I didn't have any defects at all with my M9 before I sold it for the M. If, or when, I get a stuck pixel on the M I shall probably ignore it - but if it results in a column defect then that's different. From what I have seen so far on the M 240, an entire pixel column just goes bad without prior notice. It doesn't start with a stuck pixel. But we haven't seen such defects for a couple of months now, so I tend to believe it must have been a manufacturing issue, that has already been dealt with by Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceVentura1986 Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share #13 Posted May 12, 2014 From what I have seen so far on the M 240, an entire pixel column just goes bad without prior notice. It doesn't start with a stuck pixel. But we haven't seen such defects for a couple of months now, so I tend to believe it must have been a manufacturing issue, that has already been dealt with by Leica. Although I understand the CMOS versus CCD explanation above and how it would lead to stuck columns in my M8, if the problem persists in M240s that would be very troubling. All tech has its natural limitations but I've read nothing on why this should happen to CMOS. It actually runs against my entire experience w Canon. Also, the only place I've read about cosmic rays affecting the sensor has been here but it does sound plausible. I'm traveling in a few days and have to decide between taking the ME or my Canon 6D. I'd rather take the ME, but would be more comfortable flying w the Canon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bideford Posted May 12, 2014 Share #14 Posted May 12, 2014 ......... I'm traveling in a few days and have to decide between taking the ME or my Canon 6D. I'd rather take the ME, but would be more comfortable flying w the Canon. I would not leave either an ME or M240 at home on the off chance of getting a pixel error. With respect to the OP (and Leica, of course!) it does seem to me that anyone with such a degree of pessimism would probably be better served away from digital Leica! James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted May 12, 2014 Share #15 Posted May 12, 2014 Although I understand the CMOS versus CCD explanation above and how it would lead to stuck columns in my M8, if the problem persists in M240s that would be very troubling. All tech has its natural limitations but I've read nothing on why this should happen to CMOS. It actually runs against my entire experience w Canon. Also, the only place I've read about cosmic rays affecting the sensor has been here but it does sound plausible. I'm traveling in a few days and have to decide between taking the ME or my Canon 6D. I'd rather take the ME, but would be more comfortable flying w the Canon. For what it's worth, my M9 has done many flights with no ill effect on the sensor. I've only had the M240 for 3 months but it has already done two long trips, again with no stuck pixels whatsoever. Like you I don't believe in this cosmic ray having an effect on sensors theory, especially Leica sensors I would say don't worry, just take your ME and enjoy your time with it! That is what Leica Ms are made to do, take pictures not stay safely at home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 12, 2014 Share #16 Posted May 12, 2014 Although I understand the CMOS versus CCD explanation above and how it would lead to stuck columns in my M8, if the problem persists in M240s that would be very troubling. All tech has its natural limitations but I've read nothing on why this should happen to CMOS. It actually runs against my entire experience w Canon. Also, the only place I've read about cosmic rays affecting the sensor has been here but it does sound plausible. I'm traveling in a few days and have to decide between taking the ME or my Canon 6D. I'd rather take the ME, but would be more comfortable flying w the Canon. Not very rational, as most scientific studies on the subject have been done using CMos sensors... Let me google that for you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceVentura1986 Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share #17 Posted May 12, 2014 Not very rational, as most scientific studies on the subject have been done using CMos sensors... Let me google that for you Actually, its completely rational: 1. In 14 years of experience shooting digital cameras, I've experienced a stuck column once, with the M8. All my experience shooting Canons has been with individual pixels. 2. Leica wants to charge minimum of $475 to "fix" (ie remap) the M8 sensor. My ME's warranty expires in six months thus posing a financial concern. 3. Even though my ME is still under warranty, I am embarking on a ten day vacation and would really be disappointed if each photo I took had a vertical line bisecting it. 4. As stated above, there does in fact appear to be a difference in the way CCDs and CMOS handle stuck pixels. Such pixels may, and I emphasize may, result from air travel and I have the option of taking a CMOS camera or a CCD camera, thus posing the question. 5. Also, love shooting Leicas and would upgrade to the M240 if they are not prone to stuck columns. Therefore, I think on the above I have been very rational on this. My original concern in this post was whether to upgrade at some point this year to an M240. From the other posts, it appears that the M240 also suffered from stuck pixels, but apparently resulting from a manufacturing issue, I guess similar to the cracked sensors in M9s. That issue has somewhat been addressed, although not conclusively. RV Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 12, 2014 Share #18 Posted May 12, 2014 Well, I have 15 years of digital shooting and air travel behind me, and I never had a stuck/dead pixel or column - touch wood. I do not think luck or lack thereof is rational... It would certainly not make me leave a certain camera at home. For my psychological makeup, that way lieth paranoia.... I have my own fetishes, for instance stowing my cameras vertically to reduce the target. And if all else fails it is easy enough to make a little action or droplet to eliminate a pixel line as a batch. Btw, Leica is often very lenient for remapping jobs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceVentura1986 Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share #19 Posted May 12, 2014 Well, I have 15 years of digital shooting and air travel behind me, and I never had a stuck/dead pixel or column - touch wood. I do not think luck or lack thereof is rational...It would certainly not make me leave a certain camera at home. For my psychological makeup, that way lieth paranoia.... I have my own fetishes, for instance stowing my cameras vertically to reduce the target. And if all else fails it is easy enough to make a little action or droplet to eliminate a pixel line as a batch. Btw, Leica is often very lenient for remapping jobs. Thanks for the input, Jaap, and all others in the thread. Think I'll take the ME anyway. As for a M240, I'll keep up w this forum and see if the stuck columns is still an issue a few months from now. Again, thanks to all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 12, 2014 Share #20 Posted May 12, 2014 Not very rational, as most scientific studies on the subject have been done using CMos sensors... Let me google that for you ... so, using CMOS sensor to study the effect of cosmic rays on CMOS sensors, could happen that CMOS sensors are in turn damaged by cosmic rays... so that the results... fine example of the well known "before the egg or the hen ? " problem... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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