Future of the "R" series

[brunom]

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Allan

 

I can see that high ISO can of course be useful,especially when high quality is given, but if the R10 [?] only goes to say ISO 2,500/3200 that would not prevent me from buying it, whereas, if it didn't have direct ISO or shutter speed input controls, along with manual focus [ with confirmation ! ] I would not buy it.

 

It also seems that one of the reasons manufacturers are being forced to use high ISO is because of the low f/ numbered zoom lenses available and the inevitable camera shake that results in dim light

 

I do believe that there are many photographers who will appreciate, and buy, a camera that was smaller [such as Marc's mock up] than the Canon and Nikon DSLRs and which gives the exquisite results that you can get with Leica R lenses.

 

Bruno

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[AlanG]

I do believe that there are many photographers who will appreciate, and buy, a camera that was smaller [such as Marc's mock up] than the Canon and Nikon DSLRs and which gives the exquisite results that you can get with Leica R lenses.

 

Bruno

 

I'm sure that's correct. And I totally get your point and see where you are coming from. I'm not trying to give you an argument or convince you one way is right or one way is wrong. I am just trying to see it from a technology and marketing perspective.

 

I still am comfortable using my view camera and that is about as manual as photography gets. If Mathew Brady came back from the dead and I showed him a "modern" view camera, he'd probably say, " That looks pretty familiar. I would have thought that camera technology would have advanced a lot more than that after 140 years." So some things don't have to change much.

 

Keep in mind that Nikon and Canon make a variety of models. Maybe Leica should make more than one model also.

 

All I was getting at is that whatever Leica does it should be as advanced as the competition or they may limit their sales to just Leica enthusiasts.

 

I used to find the shutter speed dial on the body and the f stop ring on the lens a pretty good way to do. But I don't feel that way any more. I prefer that when I change lenses the f stop stays the same and the controls are always in the same place regardless of the lens. Plus I think a traditional shutter speed dial will get pretty crowded with the wide range of shutter speeds. And how do you accomodate giving it multi-function abilities or the capapbility to be programmed from 1/3 to 1/2 stop detents? And how about duplicating the shutter speed control so it is accesible when shoooting wiht duplicate controls for vertical orientation? Even wiht the old method, I pretty much stopped looking at the shutter dial or f stop ring once I had the information in the viewfinder.

 

This is all necessary to ergonomically accomodate all of the features with the number of controls that can fit on a body.

 

Now I can understand that a number of people may not want these types of controls and prefer the traditional method. And maybe a camera without too many "unnecessary" features will be ideal for them. But it may be tough to keep the tradional control methods and still add state of the art features. I guess these are the decisions that Leica has to make that will determine how broad a market they can best target with their limited resources..

[hektor]

" ~ also suggested that Leica UK were reducing stocks, possibly prior to introducing a new reflex camera with auto focus.......shock horror. I wonder if he really meant auto focus confirm?"

 

© Erwin Puts 10 June 2007:

 

"In a recent issue of the German Fotomagazin, there is an article about the 'secret plans' of Leica product development. Not exactly that, but a guestimate by a journalist with good connections within the company. He looks through his crystal ball into the content of interviews with Leica managers. What does he predict?: an M9 and an R10, daring and creative. The M9 is the current M8 with 16 Mb sensor as you will also find in the R10. The M9 (probability rating 90%!) has 16 Mb on the same sensor size as the current M8, will have a Live View function, electronic rangefinder support or an electronic finder as an accessory device. The M8 will stay in production but now as an a-la-carte model (probability rating 95%). A digital CM is also predicted but with a PR of only 30%. With a PR of 90% we will see a new R10 in the current body shape of the R9, but with 16 Mb sensor and AF lenses. In the past we had the R and RE series of bodies, so there will also be an R10E (PR of 50%)."

[brunom]

Allan

 

I think that where we have a basic difference is that I'm much more of an 'M' user than an 'R' user although I do have an R8. To be honest for reflex work I prefer my 503CW, not necessarily because of its larger format but because of the way it is used - slowly and looking down into the viewfinder - you just seem to get a different sort of reaction when using it, and maybe it's the semi respectful position you take that encourages this response - it's not so aggressive or intimidating ?

 

I do accept your marketing stance, but I fear that if Leica does make a camera that is really technologically advanced with all the bells and whistles it will be perceived as taking on Nikon and Canon and I believe it just doesn't have the means to win that one. Maybe it's better for them to remain a big fish in a small pond rather than a minnow in a lake taking on the pike?

 

Bruno

 

PS : Don't now if you get pike in a lake - but you know what I mean

[hektor]

Notwithstanding the quote from Puts, I don't believe the R10 will ever happen. Accordingly I have had my twelve R lenses given a CLA by Solms so that when the reflex line is discontinued, my R glass will be useable for the foreseeable future.

[rsolomon]

i agree , i just don't see an R10 that outperforms the R9 and DMR, i do see an "E" version as in RE, a lower feautured product- the R9 is an awesome camera.

 

The "R" camera body just needs 3 things imo :

 

1. DMR II/firmware, (ability to write jpeg + raw, better AWB, smaller raw files, faster buffer)

2. switchable on/off AF confirmation

3. Brighter viewfinder

[telyt]

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i just don't see an R10 that outperforms the R9 and DMR, i do see an "E" version as in RE, a lower feautured product- the R9 is an awesome camera.

 

The "R" camera body just needs 3 things imo :

 

1. DMR II/firmware, (ability to write jpeg + raw, better AWB, smaller raw files, faster buffer)

2. switchable on/off AF confirmation

3. Brighter viewfinder

 

An R10 could out-perform the DMR if it has a larger sensor with the same pixel density. It you wanted it to perform like the DMR you could always throw away the outer areas of the picture to crop it the same as the DMR's sensor does.

 

(rant mode ON) This is one thing I don't "get": why does anyone think that a 'crop factor' is an advantage for wildlife photographers? I can get the same crop factor out of a bigger (i.e., "full-frame") sensor by throwing the edges away; the full-frame sensor gives me the option of using or not using the edges while the 'crop-factor' sensor gives me no choice, it throws the edges away whether I want it to or not.

 

Another thing... the focus confirmation feature. On another forum there's a thread about focus confirmation on the D200 - several photographers wrote that they can focus more quickly w/o the focus confirmation, because the FC gives little indication that it's near the optimum focus point. When focussing manually the photographer can see that correct focus is near, and slow the movement of the focussing ring. Using FC, they tend to over-shoot repeatedly. Think twice about wishing for this feature, you just might get it.

 

(rant mode OFF)

[sdai]

This is one thing I don't "get": why does anyone think that a 'crop factor' is an advantage for wildlife photographers? I can get the same crop factor out of a bigger (i.e., "full-frame") sensor by throwing the edges away;

 

I can't agree more with you on this, Doug ... some people just don't realize what they've got with a 1.5x, 1.6x or even 2x camera are only PART of the image. All the "advantages" of a cropped camera were nothing more than marketing BS Nikon, Olympus, and others used to persuade people buying into their inferior products.

 

Now here's something I've put on photo.net for quite some time ... my 1Ds was the first one "unofficially" sold in Canada by the way. LOL

 

300/2.8IS handheld.

 

 

400/5.6 handheld.

 

 

500/4 handheld ...

 

 

Now, Doug ... with manual focus, how can I get these shots while holding my camera with my right hand, and turning the focusing ring with my left hand? LOL

[telyt]

560mm f/6.8 hand-held (1.37x crop factor):

 

 

Sliding focus is soooo much easier and quicker than rotating rings... and good ergonomic design helps too.

[telyt]

280mm + 1.4x extender w/ hand-held tripod:

 

 

Good ergonomic design includes placing a hand rest/tripod socket close enough to the lens barrel that the hand holding the lens can easily operate the focussing control. The tall tripod foot Canon uses is an ergonomic disaster, it gives you no choice but to use AF.

[telewatt]

 

Now, Doug ... with manual focus, how can I get these shots while holding my camera with my right hand, and turning the focusing ring with my left hand? LOL

 

..why not?.. ..the results are important, nothing more..

 

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regards,

Jan

[sdai]

Sliding focus, ok ... I'm giving up, folks ... I must admit that there're people who could shoot flying birds using a M8 ... hit or miss. LOL

[telyt]

Manual focus doesn't get confused by textured backgrounds the way AF does when photographing flying birds:

 

 

 

 

All photos: Leicaflex SL, 400mm f/6.8 telyt, hand-held

[robsteve]

Sliding focus, ok ... I'm giving up, folks ... I must admit that there're people who could shoot flying birds using a M8 ... hit or miss. LOL

 

Simon:

 

Have you ever had a Leica R and the lenses? From your comments on the DMR and future R, I thought you were a R user.

[rob_x2004]

I think the only thing you can be confident of is that it will keep things in house so it will be a manual focus using the existing R bayonet. If it isnt...who cares.

[sdai]

Have you ever had a Leica R and the lenses? From your comments on the DMR and future R, I thought you were a R user.

 

Rob, I still have some R lenses, the 90AA, 100 Macro, 35-70 etc ... in fact, I even tried a DMR after seeing your cat, kids, football pictures posted on robgalbraith forums but, I don't shoot with a R camera anymore. Simple ... if you can't "grab" the shots, you can't go further to appreciate how good your pictures are.

 

I mainly grab family, kids snaps these days. And I use the R lenses on my Canon with assorted EF collections ... manual lenses still cut the mustard for me, but with focus confirmation, I'm getting more keepers, especially in dim crappy light conditions ... indoor swimming pools, ballet studios, etc. A "current" R camera doesn't work these out for me ... though I'm 100% positive there're folks much better at these (with MF) than I ever could be.

[sdai]

I think the only thing you can be confident of is that it will keep things in house so it will be a manual focus using the existing R bayonet. If it isnt...who cares.

 

That's what I figure too ... I've little doubt the old Rs can still be used on a "R10" however, from a customer's perspective, the ROM lenses certainly won't retain their "value" when the AF Rs come out ... just do a reality check on the single cam, 2 cam and 3 cam lenses on eBay, these are NOT crappy glasses. Even the legendary 180/3.4 APO can be had for 500 bucks, I'm seeing 105-280 for less than 3k, 28-90 and 90AA are all under 2k now, 280/2.8 is probably around 3k, couple of 80/1.4 have gone for 1100-1200 recently, 100/2.8 macro can be had for 1200 ... these are all top dogs in their leagues.

[topoxforddoc]

Rob, I still have some R lenses, the 90AA, 100 Macro, 35-70 etc ... in fact, I even tried a DMR after seeing your cat, kids, football pictures posted on robgalbraith forums but, I don't shoot with a R camera anymore. Simple ... if you can't "grab" the shots, you can't go further to appreciate how good your pictures are.

 

I mainly grab family, kids snaps these days. And I use the R lenses on my Canon with assorted EF collections ... manual lenses still cut the mustard for me, but with focus confirmation, I'm getting more keepers, especially in dim crappy light conditions ... indoor swimming pools, ballet studios, etc. A "current" R camera doesn't work these out for me ... though I'm 100% positive there're folks much better at these (with MF) than I ever could be.

 

Simon,

 

Getting shots focussed by MF regularly on the R9 was difficult for me too initially, even though the R9 viewfinder is great. Once I bought the Brightscreen magnifier, my hit rate went up a lot as I was able to see more clearly whether I was in focus or not.

 

Charlie

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[Guest Motivfindender]

That's what I figure too ... I've little doubt the old Rs can still be used on a "R10" however, from a customer's perspective, the ROM lenses certainly won't retain their "value" when the AF Rs come out ... just do a reality check on the single cam, 2 cam and 3 cam lenses on eBay, these are NOT crappy glasses. Even the legendary 180/3.4 APO can be had for 500 bucks, I'm seeing 105-280 for less than 3k, 28-90 and 90AA are all under 2k now, 280/2.8 is probably around 3k, couple of 80/1.4 have gone for 1100-1200 recently, 100/2.8 macro can be had for 1200 ... these are all top dogs in their leagues.

 

 

Well - it is a market like the stock market.

If people panic or have just some anxious phantasy because there are some unsubstantial, absurd rumours - the price falls immediate and extremely - not regarding the real objective value. People are like that.

 

I hope this will last - because I want to buy a R-9/DMR and a R15mm - go ahead, guys! Panic more! want to get it for 1500 bucks - and I will, I am shure.. if not tomorrow, then in some months...

 

Dirk

[sdai]

Getting shots focussed by MF regularly on the R9 was difficult for me too initially, even though the R9 viewfinder is great. Once I bought the Brightscreen magnifier, my hit rate went up a lot as I was able to see more clearly whether I was in focus or not.

 

I have heard a lot of good things about the Brightscreen but have never tried it out Charlie. It may not work in my cases though ... the mule deers I've put up on photo.net were so show someone what the Canon can do long time ago, they were all shot after dusk, pushing the noise bugger 1Ds up to ISO 400 ISO 800 and you can see the images being plagued by excessive noise massage in PS. Maybe someone else can but I surely couldn't figure out how to manually focus a 400mm or 500 mm lens handheld, close to 8pm.